Let's Talk Blue Rose

[MoogleEmpMog]

That's why I talked about LotR being a de facto (if imperfect) start for modern fantasy. You're working with a different timeline, obviously. In a different timeline, Howard and his contemporaries obviously set the trend early on.

What point would you start with for fantasy? And do you not see a dividing line between the sword & sorcery and pulp fiction -- which to a large extent became a rather small part of genre publishing by the time LotR was rediscovered -- and what's come after LotR's renaissance in the 1960s?

I would tend to start modern fantasy with Howard's first Conan stories, with a nod to Lord Dunsany and Lewis Carol, because post-Howard (and post-Lovecraft), we have a relatively steady flow of new fantasy written in a related mileu, and the emergence of "fantasy" as a distinct genre. Prior to Conan, fantasy is essentially lumped in with sci-fi, or even historical adventure.

Fantasy essentially undergoes a reset when Lord of the Rings becomes widely popular in the '60s, and a new generation of fantasy writers arises catering to this new market. Epic fantasy becomes the dominat subgenre and sword and sorcery becomes comparatively obscured. I'm not sure how much sword and sorcery really fades at this point; it's more a matter of epic fantasy being much bigger than sword and sorcery had been.

Nonetheless, the popularity of epic fantasy eventually leads to a renewed interest in sword and sorcery, as evidenced by the popularity of writers like Martin, and to hybrid "military fantasy" writers like Harry Turtledove, who essentially apply a sword and sorcery mindset to an epic fantasy plot.

The differences between Lewis and Lackey are more a matter of real-world religious and philosophical differences, rather than what's actually on the page. Both posit a world where Good and Evil are real forces, and both posit that Good is the default state of the universe, and that authority and groups in general tend towards Goodness in the absence of active interference by Evil.

That's a huge difference from the worlds of Howard or (I always spell his name wrong) Leiber, and I would say a larger difference between what exists between Lewis and Lackey.

I would largely agree with this. However, the real-world religious and philosophical differences (and also, I wager, the difference in the caliber of writing between the two specific examples ) make a huge difference in who enjoys the stories.

 

[Nisarg]

heck, I'd love to take the rules and the influences and apply them to Thieves World game, but I know I could never do that with my current group. It'd be a very different and odd TW game, but it could be so cool......

That's funny, I had the exact same thought.. I wonder what it is about Thieves World that makes us think BR would be good for it?

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

I can see your point about the game authors trying to portray a clear “good vs. evil” setting like Star Wars, though... In fact, the game makes more sense when I go back and look at it that way. It’s just that such objectivity wouldn’t mesh well with my current gaming group (although ironically, they’re almost all huge Star Wars fans?)

In Star Wars the Sith and the Jedi are Black and White, but that's about the limit of it.
The PEOPLE in the setting are all grey, right up to and including the blindness of Yoda and the Jedi masters, the weakness of the senate, the selfishness of Han Solo, the survival instinct of Lando, and, of course, Anakin and Luke, two very imperfect protagonists.

Blue Rose, on the surface, appears to have nothing of that. Its a perfect form of government run by perfect people (they must be, the MAGIC DEER said they are), who are always good.
And what is FAR FAR WORSE is that their enemies, in Jarzon for example, are just plain bad. They have no redeeming qualities, until or unless they are willing to turn around and embrace the "tolerant society" of Aldis.

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

Granted, I'm not Marion Zimmer Bradley fan (forgive the spelling), but I think this would help bring those fans into our hobby.

I agree, but ONLY if Green Ronin advertises in places where these fans are likely to find out about the game, and can successfully make the game accessible to these fans.

Otherwise, no one will notice it.

I sure hope GR has a publicity campaign planned, because otherwise they're gonna miss out on a golden opportunity for them as a company and for the hobby overall.

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

The Heralds of Valdemar trilogy is one of her better ones, and is available on ereader. If you're looking for print books too I recommend her Vows and Honor trilogy. It's mostly a collection of short stories, and has the romantic fantasy equivalent of Fahrd and the Grey Mouser.

Am I the only one who's confused by the fact that Rape and Incest scenes appear to be a staple of the "romantic fantasy" genre in general and Lackey's novels in particular? And that this is marketed to a teen female audience? Anyone with a psychology degree care to explain it to me?

I mean, the male homosexuality thing I understand; that's why Yaoi Comics are mostly bought by japanese women..

Anyways, just thought it was the moment to ask about something that's always perplexed me about "romantic fantasy"... i for one don't grasp the "romance" of incest or rape...

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

Indeed, I am hard pressed to think of a writer further away from the likes of Mercedes Lackey than Joss Whedon.


If Joss Whedon ever wrote a 'romantic fantasy' novel, I am sure that it would be dripping with irony, self-deprecation, and a sense of irreverent self-awareness completely alien to overly eager neo-pagan, tarot card-reading, crunchy New Age types that love the novels of ML, et al.

Sure Buffy tVS has a Wicca lesbian witch, etc. But the tone of BtVS is fundamentally subversive and mocking. As far as I can tell, the genre of 'romantic fantasy' utterly lacks this feature.

At least that's my suspicion.

And your suspicion would be correct.. the hallmarks of Romantic Fantasy are a real sincere belief in the "values" the settings promote, and a complete and utter inability to make fun of itself.. its all meant to be taken very very seriously.

Which is why Buffy is actually the kind of anti-romantic fantasy. It never really took itself seriously at all, nor did it suggest that teenage vampire slayers or lesbian teen witches were perfectly good, morally correct beings who would lead the world into utopia if only they weren't oppressed by evil men. Instead it dared to present them as silly, human, often wrong, and generally flawed.

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

Absolutely. Only it's a "manly" philosophy rather than a "girly" one. It's "why don't we just kick all their asses?" rather than "why can't everyone just get along?"

Yup.. I hate the "Conan" genre with its underlying brutish "might makes right" principles just as much as I hate the "romantic fantasy" genre with its underlying "it takes a village" principle.

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

Jarzon isn't the black. Jarzon is the gray. The black is the scary evil lich king.

More accurately: the evil lich king is presented as Objectively Evil,
Jarzon as Objectively WRONG, and
Aldis as both Objectively RIGHT and objectively GOOD.

And that, coupled with the "values" aldis considers "good", is what makes me dislike the setting (and "romantic fantasy" in general).

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

Well I do indeed loathe the genre of 'romantic fantasy' (or at least the samples that I have encountered in the past). Many apologies for actually expressing my opinion, and inquiring the extent to which I can ignore a genre that I loathe in order to get to the (what sound like fairly interesting) rules.

If someone really loathed R.E. Howard's work, but was interested in the mechanics of the Conan RPG, it would be perfectly appropriate for that person to make his/her dislike known, and inquire to what extent he/she could ignore the setting in order to get to the rules (or inquire to what extent he/she could use the rules for a non-Hyborian campaign).

Here, I'll say it. I LOATHE Robert E. Howards work. I never read anything of his that didn't disgust me.

Maybe that will make Whizbang and Patrick feel better..

Nisarg

 

[BryonD]

Yup.. I hate the "Conan" genre with its underlying brutish "might makes right" principles just as much as I hate the "romantic fantasy" genre with its underlying "it takes a village" principle.

Nisarg

Hate wouldn't be the right word for me. But other than that, this statement presents it well.