Lets Talk Midnight! [ Jerod Please Stay Out ]

[Desdichado]

First, I dislike the basic concept of the setting. Guess that sets me out of the loop straight away. What has happened? Essnetially Sauron has the One Ring back -- okay, different names and world, but the same situation -- the Ultimate Evil has wrested total control of all of creation (well, the world anyway) and there is no way at all that he will ever be defeated. Period. So, with that as a given, I don't even see the slightest point to gaming in the world. No, I'm not fond of "god killing" campaigns, but since there is absolutely no hope for anything even approaching good will ever do more than scrabble on rocks and fight cruelly for survival I cannot even begin to organize a campaign that would suit the tastes of myself or my players.

I think that's a misnomer.

Y'know a lot has been made of the parallels between Midnight and Tolkien, but I think the focus is a bit misplaced. Here's my take on it, anyway.

Izrador himself much more closely resembles Morgoth than he does Sauron, for one thing (was an original god, defied all the others, was banished to Middle-earth, settled in the North, etc.). The Sundering is also similar to the withdrawal of the Valar from Middle-earth and their fencing themselves into Valinor. The current events, in which the elves and dwarves are fighting a desperate rearguard in a war that's really already over remind me very strongly of conditions near the end of the First Age in Beleriand: Doriath ravaged, Gondolin toppled, Nargothrond otherthrown, the Edain living in slavery. The dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost were shut inside their mountains, and the elves were hiding in a few coastal towns. The great battles of Midnight really only superficially resemble the ends of the 1st 2nd and 3rd ages in Middle-earth; they really more closely resemble the fabulous battles of the First Age itself, and the battle that ends the Third Age of Midnight is equivalent to the Battle of Unnumbered Tears in the First Age of Middle-earth. Overall, reading the history of Aryth, I don't get that "appendices to Return of the
King" vibe, I get a much more Silmarillion vibe.

Following that comparison, a natural goal of a Midnight campaign would be to cast the PCs in the "Earendil role"; that of seeking out the old gods and returning them to Aryth to end Izrador's reign of terror.

I realize this kinda defeats the purpose of the "we're so dark and grim" vibe of the setting, but keep in mind that this victory against Morgoth was at best a Pyrrhic victory. The entire continent of Beleriand was ruined and sank beneath the sea. It broke the back of elven culture in Middle-earth; they never again really were anywhere near the potent power they once were. Morgoth's corruption only opened the door for Sauron to step into his shoes later. The legendary Golden Age was gone forever, to be replaced by the "Silver Age" of the Second Age, and the "Bronze Age" of the Third Age. Aragorn's Fourth Age wasn't even that. The themes of bitter loss and irrevocable damage done by the evil is strong in Tolkien, and the nature of Morgoth to eventually return for the "Ragnarok" is still easy to see in much of his writing (especially his unpublished stuff in Morgoth's Ring).

So, does this sound like an interesting take on Midnight, or something out of left field? Is this compatible with the designs of the designers, or is this just my own take on the subject?

Clearly, I understand that I can play the game any darn way I want, but I'm just curious is this is something that's occured to anyone before, or if they think my comparisons are unfounded.

Second, once the base concept is accepted, I like the concept of little magic, few magic items, etc., yet the Heroic Paths take all that feeling away. Essentially what you have with each Heroic Path is a set list of magical items that can never be taken away from you. Not only that, but you know in advance what magical bonuses you will get, rather than finding more random magical items over the course of time. You are pre-tailored and the power level of the campaign is pre-set. And, for my tastes, the power levels of the Heroic Paths are too high. Of course that is assuming that the characters would actually survive to those levels.

I have other problems, but since these are so basic and fundamental, I cannot see myself ever running (or playing in) the game. I am one of those rare people who find the campaign utterly unappealing.

I kinda agree with this. I really like the Midnight magic system, and other aspects of Midnight, and I don't mind heroic path as a concept, but I'm unlikely to ever use it for the same reasons.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

I like Midnight, and I have to point out that Izrador has been defeated two out of three times he attacked. We can do it again! We can wipe his stain from our land! We may not be able to gut him like a craven Orc, but we can surely cleanse the land of his damned minions! We can reduce his power and bringing hope back into Aryth, until such time as Aryth herself vomits his foul soul into the blackest hell!

-- N

TO ARMS!!

 

[shadow]

From what I've seen of Midnight, it doesn't appeal to me too much. It seems a little too dark for my tastes. However, I guess that the level of darkness depends on the DM.

 

[Emiricol]

Joshua's comments are well thought out, and pretty much right on target.

However, the heroic paths can be used or not (Rule Zero), but since magic is risky and magic items are nearly as much of a curse as a blessing, the Heroic Paths add some cool flavor and help make PCs viable.

I would like to point out that there are many, many differences between LotR and Midnight - the resemblance is inspirational, not plagiarism-like.

One final note - just because players can't overthrow Izrador (or they can - see Rule Zero again), doesn't mean the game must be grim/hopeless. It is a dark setting, true, but there are a lot of things players can do. The Sarcosans are well positioned to unite in rebellion, and could secure the Elves' southern flank, for example. The Dwarves could regain contact with one another and put more pressure on the east flank, taking pressure off the Elves in general. For example.

So there is a lot that you can do, within the intended framework of the setting. More with Rule Zero (and come on, name me a DM that doesn't Rule Zero *something* in their settings!).

 

[Neo]

Gregor said

Hey everyone,
Those of you who are DMing or playing in a Midnight campaign, have you found the magic system to work well?

The Spell Energy system works fine, it requires a little bit more bookkeeping than normal on the players part but the whole feel of low magic comes across well.

Have you found that a Channeller has been able to keep up with the other classes?

Absolutely no problems on that score at all in my experience.

Do you think the Heroic Paths are too powerful or are they a good replacement for the lack of magic items and spells?

Heroic Paths in a normal D&D game may seem a little powerful but in Midnight they server a different purpose and instead provide the layers a little bit of an edge to help them out. Bare in mind the majority of those around them will be hostile towards them the moment they overtly act against the Shadow of the North, and the limitations on what equipment is available magical or otherwise from the beginning is lessened thanks to the benefits the paths provide.

Would it be too over-the-top to start my players out with covenant items but almost completely restrict the purchasing of magic enchantments so as to force them to unlock their weapon's abilities and become attached to the item? (grammar= )

So long as your story explains it and the presence of these items in your PC's hands makes sense then I do not see any reason myself why it would be over the top. Quite a few story hooks could arise from how or why they have these items, perhaps they have no idea of the true potential in thier hands via these items, or maybe they have legacies none of them ever imagined... the possible explanations are endless.

Overall, how have you found your Midnight experience? Is it difficult to get your players to wrap their heads around the fact that they will probably NEVER defeat Izrador?

I like it, our games have been very atmospheric, dark and frightening, a sense of being pursued and that danger lurks everywhere... its easy to assume there is no chance and no hope but its the little things that matter, every act of defiance every success against the shadow makes the players feel that little bit more hope, that little bit more sense that maybe they can make a difference.

Wombat Said

First, I dislike the basic concept of the setting. Guess that sets me out of the loop straight away. What has happened? Essnetially Sauron has the One Ring back -- okay, different names and world, but the same situation -- the Ultimate Evil has wrested total control of all of creation (well, the world anyway) and there is no way at all that he will ever be defeated. Period. So, with that as a given, I don't even see the slightest point to gaming in the world. No, I'm not fond of "god killing" campaigns, but since there is absolutely no hope for anything even approaching good will ever do more than scrabble on rocks and fight cruelly for survival I cannot even begin to organize a campaign that would suit the tastes of myself or my players.

Saying it is like LoTR but with different names is like saying The Matrix is like Tron but with different names... its a heck of a generalisation and only looks at both sides of the comparison at their basic form. Their are similarities sure, but the dynamic ends there. You say theres no hope, not of winning the war or of beating a god... yet games like FR pit characters among the plans and plots and against gods in the dozens... its no different and just as workable. Midnight isn't necessarily about winning the war its about the little victories, showing the shaodw of the north that hope still remains, that no matter how much he oppresses and punishes them that he will never break the spirit of hope and the desire to one day see things right. Every little victory be it against the lowliest orc or petty tyrant traitor prince, all the way up to thwarting the machinations of the Night Kings themselves matters... Midnight isn't about winning the war, its about winning the battles, showign that right and good survives now matter how hard the dark god tries to suppress it or wipe it out.

Not all games have to involve a showdown with the settings big bad ending with a nice big celebration with singing and dancing before the final credits..

Second, once the base concept is accepted, I like the concept of little magic, few magic items, etc., yet the Heroic Paths take all that feeling away. Essentially what you have with each Heroic Path is a set list of magical items that can never be taken away from you. Not only that, but you know in advance what magical bonuses you will get, rather than finding more random magical items over the course of time. You are pre-tailored and the power level of the campaign is pre-set. And, for my tastes, the power levels of the Heroic Paths are too high. Of course that is assuming that the characters would actually survive to those levels.

Dep[ends how they are presented, if you read the preview story on FFG's site, it presents very well I think how Heroic path benefits add to the mystique of a low magic setting and do not as you believe just throw the balance back towards that of a high magic setting.

Anything can be provideed in whatever light you wish to see it in order to give you the view of it you want to have.. if you believe something to not work and set your mind to it, then thats all it will ever be. However that does not mean that your impression is correct. As with any game setting you get from ti exactly what you put into it, all the setting does is provide you the bare bones..you have to lay the mapwork of veins and muscle and vital organs in order to breathe life into the beast yourself.

 

[Neo]

From what I've seen of Midnight, it doesn't appeal to me too much. It seems a little too dark for my tastes. However, I guess that the level of darkness depends on the DM.

The world is dark but this only works in the players favour as thier actions and thier deeds shine that much more brightly and are noticed that much more because of the darkness all around.

 

[Carnifex]

As someone currently playing a channeller in a Midnight campaign, here are my answers...

Those of you who are DMing or playing in a Midnight campaign, have you found the magic system to work well?

Thus far, yes - though it's quite a shock running a channeller after seeing normal D&D spellcasters in action.

Have you found that a Channeller has been able to keep up with the other classes?

Despite my above comment, I'd say yes, definitely. My channeller has access to healing spells and lots of buffs - makes him a core member of the party, maintaining the entire band at maximum efficiency. Despite the heroic paths, the average party is still massively less powerful than a comparable D&D party, so the only place people are getting buffs, magical weapon effects, etc, is from the channellers.

Also, I've taken the charismatic path - it's incredibly useful, since if I find myself in a combat where I'm not doing much and can't afford to cast many spells, I can just use the charismatic abilities to buff the party.

Do you think the Heroic Paths are too powerful or are they a good replacement for the lack of magic items and spells?

As yet (we're level 4) they don't even come close to making up for the lack of magic in terms of comparison to a normal D&D party, which I don't really mind. They're certainly not too powerful - but the occasional use of a Seer ability that my channeller has can make things easier for us.

Would it be too over-the-top to start my players out with covenant items but almost completely restrict the purchasing of magic enchantments so as to force them to unlock their weapon's abilities and become attached to the item? (grammar= )

I honestly don't know. Our party has only just got some magical items last session - one shield, and a ring that might be magical but we haven't found out yet. We haven't seen any covenant magic items yet.

Overall, how have you found your Midnight experience? Is it difficult to get your players to wrap their heads around the fact that they will probably NEVER defeat Izrador?

We're fine with that, the group that I play in. Sure, we don't feel we'll be taking down Izrador, but you can be damn sure we're doing out best to mess with the plans of the shadow, helping the resistance and generally fighting back. So successfully in fact that when the enemy found our base of operations and sent in legates and orc troopers, the legate commander had to call his troops back *because we were causing too many casualties* (And this vs 50hp or so orcs!).

 

[Nightfall]

While my experience with Midnight is limited, I hand off all Sage power for Midnight to Ashrem Bayle. Just check his sig.

 

[Nighthawk]

I have been in involved in the Midnight setting as both a player and a gm. So far, it's my favorite setting, which definitely makes my views biased in favor of Midnight.

The magic system works, but with some kinks. This is highly dependent on what type of Midnight campaign is played and whether or not the participants can deal with the changes. Forcing the Midnight magic system to standard D&D is not a viable tactic, at least not in my experience. I see no major problem with it at all, but then again, I consider the D&D magic system to have its own problems as well.

The Channeller is a solid class in the campaigns I have been a part of. Indeed, at lower levels they seem to be fine. It's at higher levels they can have issues, especially if the spellcasting players keep the standard D&D spells expectations rather than adapting to Midnight's style.

Herooic paths are flavorful and cool in general. Strangely enough, they remind me of feats in that some are awesome, others are poor, etc.Overall, though, I think they are solid. They are, however, meant to stand on their own, not complement or directly replace magic items, IMO.

I think you could try the approach you mention about the covenant magic items, but it will require some tweaking to figure out how you want it to work. I like the concept, but have no experience with what you propose.

My experience with Midnight has been good overall, with many enjoyable moments. I think it's like any other setting in that it is open to multiple styles of play and not set in one rigid mode. It strikes me that Midnight has gotten the unfortunate stereotype of "The Great Evil Has Won and There is No Hope!" That's not even the focus of the campaign and has been quite overblown, IMO. Instead, it's more about what people will and will not do to survive and perhaps, just perhaps, find some way to improve their lot in life.

 

[Dirigible]

You dissapoint me, Ash... your Sage-fu is weak. You didn;t actually answer Gregors questions!

Those of you who are DMing or playing in a Midnight campaign, have you found the magic system to work well?

Yup. I prefer it to the core system, to be honest.

Have you found that a Channeller has been able to keep up with the other classes?

Definitly. Just don't play a Spellsoul Channeler, like I did.

Do you think the Heroic Paths are too powerful or are they a good replacement for the lack of magic items and spells?

I think that they are less powerful than the equivalent items a character would have at a given level (except first). My rule of thumb as that at levels 1-5 they are +0 level adjsutment, and at levels 6+ they are worth about +1.

Would it be too over-the-top to start my players out with covenant items but almost completely restrict the purchasing of magic enchantments so as to force them to unlock their weapon's abilities and become attached to the item? (grammar= )

'Purchase enchantments' ? In Midnight? Such a thing would never come up, I imagine. Theres no one selling 'em

Overall, how have you found your Midnight experience? Is it difficult to get your players to wrap their heads around the fact that they will probably NEVER defeat Izrador?

Not at all. No-one in LotR wanted to try to take on Sauron.

- - -

Wombat: Let's use an analogy.

Eredane is occupied Europe. Now, the French Resistance never had a hope of killing Hitler (Izrador), Goering, Hess or Heinz (Night Kings... except that last one). But, they could use sabotage and guerila warfare to force the local kommondant to act on the defensive, capture food and supplies to alleviate the suffering of the populace and tie up troops.

Plus, and this is what everyone seems to forget - the War ISN'T over. The elves and dwarves are as yet unbowed.