Let's talk whips...

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Not without a Feat, and with that Feat you could use a d8 weapon instead of a d4 weapon. The only reason to use the whip would be reach, which isn't really that useful. If Whips were "light" then, I agree, we wouldn't need a Feat. It would be a choice between d6 or d4 + reach. That seems like a good trade.

And if it is a Feat, then it has to be one that can compete with Dual Wielder (or whatever it's called).
You only need a feat if you want to attack with multiple weapons in the same round. Nothing stops you from having a Rapier in one hand and a whip in the other, and attacking with the whip when you're 10 ft away, and the rapier when you're right next to your opponent.
The whip's advantage is that it is a Finesse, Reach weapon. It gives up a couple of points of damage for being able to attack from out of normal melee range, such as from behind your tougher characters. If you're not making use of its primary advantage, it makes sense to use a weapon that doesn't have it if you want the minimal damage increase.

There is a specific feat designed to grant the simultaneous use of non-light weapons as dual-wielding. I don't think that being able to pick the best advantages out of other feats and combining them is a good way to balance new ones.
It shouldn't be "competing with dual wielder" because it shouldn't be granting the same effect at all. As with all feats, you should get benefits for taking both if you wanted.

I'm not a hard-core powergamer, but nor do I think that players should be mechanically punished for RP choices.
I'm not seeing that happening. Exchanging a couple of points of damage for Reach isn't being punished.

Not sure which question you're asking here (did you mean "wouldn't" instead of "would"?) but...
1) I think it should require a feat for the above reason
2) I was looking to add utility outside of combat to make it more interesting
3) The problematic part is which Athletics/Acrobatics checks. The three choices are "DM's discretion" "If there is an anchor point" (which to me sounds like DM's Discretion) or "Always". Not sure what the best answer is.
If you make it automatic as your previous suggested feat (did you mean Acrobatics or Athletics?) then as you have written it, it would be expected to apply to every situation you were making that check, whether you were making the check to reduce your falling damage or to wriggle out of a grapple.

Nor I, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be, if somebody wanted to be creative. And if it's not a Monk weapon then no Monk will ever use it. (Not just for the damage but because some abilities require Monk Weapons to be used.) I don't see a reason to not allow Monks to join in the fun.
Doesn't that "logic" apply to every weapon in the book that isn't already a monk weapon though?
 

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You only need a feat if you want to attack with multiple weapons in the same round. Nothing stops you from having a Rapier in one hand and a whip in the other, and attacking with the whip when you're 10 ft away, and the rapier when you're right next to your opponent.

Sure, but now you've either given up the character concept of weapon in one hand, whip in the other (because presumably you're swapping the whip for something else when you're within 5') or you're seriously gimping yourself by holding a useless item in the offhand.

The whip's advantage is that it is a Finesse, Reach weapon. It gives up a couple of points of damage for being able to attack from out of normal melee range, such as from behind your tougher characters. If you're not making use of its primary advantage, it makes sense to use a weapon that doesn't have it if you want the minimal damage increase.

First, Finesse itself isn't an advantage. It's a mutually exclusive property with Versatile, and it doesn't actually grant any advantages (Except maybe that Rogues can use them for Sneak Attack.) And range is only an advantage very, very rarely. So, yeah, if you're proficient with martial weapons then maybe it makes sense to carry one on your belt for those edge cases, because they're lighter than Halberds.

But otherwise it's a pretty terrible weapon. You're giving up 2 points of damage per attack when compared to the alternatives. That's equivalent to the Dueling fighting style.

There is a specific feat designed to grant the simultaneous use of non-light weapons as dual-wielding. I don't think that being able to pick the best advantages out of other feats and combining them is a good way to balance new ones.
It shouldn't be "competing with dual wielder" because it shouldn't be granting the same effect at all. As with all feats, you should get benefits for taking both if you wanted.

TOTALLY agree. But that doesn't mean it isn't competing. Great Weapon Master and Sentinel compete with each other, in the sense that for a lot of builds they are both great feats and with one ASI you only get to pick one, but they are also great together.

Now, I'm not sure exactly how to make the same thing work with Whip Master, but that's my goal. Again, if Whips were simply "light" it would solve most of the problem.

I'm not seeing that happening. Exchanging a couple of points of damage for Reach isn't being punished.

Well, as noted above, I think we just disagree about that. How many whips are you actually seeing used as primary weapons? I've yet to see a single instance of it.

If you make it automatic as your previous suggested feat (did you mean Acrobatics or Athletics?) then as you have written it, it would be expected to apply to every situation you were making that check, whether you were making the check to reduce your falling damage or to wriggle out of a grapple.

Er, yes, I agree that's a problem. That's one reason I'm posting here...to see if anybody has any solutions to how to write it such that it's simple, fun, and useful, but not overly broad.

Doesn't that "logic" apply to every weapon in the book that isn't already a monk weapon though?

Why is "logic" in quotes? Just snark?

Generally the more damaging weapons (pretty much anything in the martial list) is not a Monk Weapon because their damage is 1d8 or more. Part of the balance of the monk class is that they do less damage at lower levels and make up for it with multiple attacks. Then their base damage scales as they increase levels to keep pace with the damage boosts of other classes (scaling Sneak Attack, multiple Divine Smites, etc.). Most of the weapons that aren't currently Monk Weapons would do too much damage at lower levels, and mess up that balance. Since the whip only does 1d4 it wouldn't really affect balance if monks could use it.

So, no, the same "logic" doesn't apply to every weapon.
 

P.S. Compare Dagger to Whip: both are finesse and do the same damage. The Whip has reach but the Dagger has thrown, which is like reach++. Plus the Dagger is light and a simple weapon, vs. the Whip's martial. In almost all other cases the martial designation is worth a damage die increase.

Why would anybody ever use a whip?

(Ok, so the whip is "reusable" reach while you can only throw the dagger once per fight. So carry a bunch of them. They're just better.)

Again, I'd be happy if whip were just changed to light. Preferably also simple, but I'd settle for only light.

But since that's unlikely to happen...a Feat, please.

Oh, and the way the two feats would stack is: if the Feat simply treated the whip as light, and then gave some extra utility, you'd still need another light weapon in the other hand. Dual Wielder would then let you pair it with a non-light weapon, plus give you the +1 AC. Solved.

EDIT: And to answer your criticism that you can already Shove or Grapple as an attack, so why does it have to be in a feat: the exact same thing could be said of Shield Master: you can already Shove with an attack. Of course Shield Master lets you do it as a bonus action, so perhaps a Whip Master feat could do something similar.
 
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Sure, but now you've either given up the character concept of weapon in one hand, whip in the other (because presumably you're swapping the whip for something else when you're within 5') or you're seriously gimping yourself by holding a useless item in the offhand.
Nothing requiring you to give up that character concept other that whatever requirement to min/max the character that makes a couple of points of damage difference something you regard as "gimping yourself". If having a weapon with different capabilities in each hand improves your versatility, and allows you to make attacks when you otherwise couldn't/deal a bit more damage then neither of them is "useless".

First, Finesse itself isn't an advantage. It's a mutually exclusive property with Versatile, and it doesn't actually grant any advantages (Except maybe that Rogues can use them for Sneak Attack.) And range is only an advantage very, very rarely. So, yeah, if you're proficient with martial weapons then maybe it makes sense to carry one on your belt for those edge cases, because they're lighter than Halberds.
Its allowing you to apply a more advantageous stat you your attack and damage rolls. Particularly because the idea of a high-dex character is likely closer to a lot of people's concepts for whip-users than strength. Note that because it uses an attack roll rather than Str(Athletics) skill, the general disarm option allows you to apply your Dex there as well. The whip is handy here mechanically as well as thematically because options like that require melee attacks, so cannot be performed using ranged attacks.
It also allows sneak attack, which is a big advantage for a reach weapon since Rogues are also a popular whip-using archetype, and using one allows you to be in a position to sneak attack without requiring you to expose yourself to return attacks or taking up a position around your enemy.


I believe that we will indeed have to agree to disagree regarding Reach. You find it an advantage "very, very rarely". I find it very useful.

I also find the ability to carry around a reach weapon that runs off my Dex that isn't as awkward or obvious as a ruddy great blade onna stick is useful as well.

TOTALLY agree. But that doesn't mean it isn't competing. Great Weapon Master and Sentinel compete with each other, in the sense that for a lot of builds they are both great feats and with one ASI you only get to pick one, but they are also great together.
Great Weapon Master and Sentinel are "competing" only in the sense that they are both useful. They do not overlap or replicate each other's effects, and it is still useful to take one when you already have the other.

Why is "logic" in quotes? Just snark?
Whups! Nope. Sorry. I started off by asking a different question, but forgot to remove the punctuation when I rephrased it.
I'm not referring to the damage of weapons. I was referring you your reasoning that "If its not a monk weapon then no monk will use it" and "I don't see a reason to not allow monks to join in the fun." as valid reasons to make Whips special Monk weapons, because the same reasoning could be applied to many other weapons, not just whips.
Would you also give Monks proficiency in Whips?
 

The Whip allows you to make dex-based melee weapon attacks with reach. That's a huge advantage.

I mean yeah, it clearly adds nothing, why would a guy running Sentinel, for example want a whip over a dagger?
Or that Booming Blade using Rogue?
Or that shield-wielding Paladin?
Or anything that adds advantages to a melee attack that you might want at range.

Sure the big weapons have reach, but none of them have Finesse or are one-handed.
 
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Hmmm, ok, I can see more utility than I originally was picturing. I clearly haven't thought through these sorts of things as much as many people on these forums.

I think what you're referring to is moving within 10', doing something like a Sneak Attack or a Divine Smite, and then moving away without ever provoking an AoO. (Although there are other builds that can do the same thing.) So, yeah, I can see that reach has some powerful uses...although letting characters use whips in their offhand doesn't actually make any of those tricks more powerful. Or am I missing something?

why would a guy running Sentinel, for example want a whip over a dagger?

Can you explain this one to me? How does reach interact with Sentinel that's amazing?
 

It also allows sneak attack, which is a big advantage for a reach weapon since Rogues are also a popular whip-using archetype, and using one allows you to be in a position to sneak attack without requiring you to expose yourself to return attacks or taking up a position around your enemy.

As I wrote in my reply to Yunru I can see that, but it's already a finesse weapon so I'm not suggesting a change there, and I'm not suggesting that Rogues get whip proficiency by default, and whether they wield it in their main-hand or off-hand doesn't actually change the utility of that trick. (Well, actually, it would be slightly less useful in their off-hand because they lose the damage bonus.)

I also find the ability to carry around a reach weapon that runs off my Dex that isn't as awkward or obvious as a ruddy great blade onna stick is useful as well.

Sure, me too. That's why I'm focusing on whips.

Great Weapon Master and Sentinel are "competing" only in the sense that they are both useful. They do not overlap or replicate each other's effects, and it is still useful to take one when you already have the other.

Yeah, and as I posted above Whip Master and Dual-Wielding could both be useful at the same time. If Whip Master let you treat the Whip as light it would only let you dual wield it with another light weapon, so Dual-Wielding would let you use a full-damage weapon in your main hand, and give you the +1 AC. (And of course you could always use two full-sized weapons whenever you wanted as well.) Full benefit, all the time? No. But the same could be said of any two Feats that give you a reaction, for example. E.g. Mage Slayer and Sentinel and Duelist.

Would you also give Monks proficiency in Whips?
I probably would, unless I'm missing a use that would make it OP...which is entirely possible. (Rules lawyers might require language stating that you can't make your additional unarmed strikes unless you're within 5'.)

Anyway, to all of the above, when I look at the weapons chart (excluding whip), I see that:

Simple melee weapons have a base damage of 1d6, Martial melee weapons have a base damage of 1d8
Finesse doesn't seem to have any "budget value" except that it is mutually exclusive with versatile, and has damage capped at base damage. (E.g. Short Sword vs. Quarterstaff, or Rapier vs. Longsword)
Reach "costs" a reduction in damage by one step. (E.g. Halberd vs. Greataxe)
Light also costs a reduction in damage by one step. (E.g. Scimitar vs. Rapier)

So by those rules, a whip should be 1d6. It's not. Adding 'light' would restore budget balance. (Although I'd be ok with adding a special note that they can't be dual-wielded despite being light.)

So a character who wanted to dual-wield would have to make the choice between doing 1d6 every round with their offhand versus doing 1d4 every round and occasionally getting that offhand attack at 10'.

Thoughts?
 

Can you explain this one to me? How does reach interact with Sentinel that's amazing?

It means you can lock down melee opponents when they try to go after squishier party members without allowing them the option of "okay, I'll just hit the guy next to me."
 



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