Let's talk whips...

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think what you're referring to is moving within 10', doing something like a Sneak Attack or a Divine Smite, and then moving away without ever provoking an AoO. (Although there are other builds that can do the same thing.) So, yeah, I can see that reach has some powerful uses...although letting characters use whips in their offhand doesn't actually make any of those tricks more powerful. Or am I missing something?



Can you explain this one to me? How does reach interact with Sentinel that's amazing?

I don't think that reach interacts with Sentinel very effectively. (Unless its been errataed or something.) Most of the abilities require a foe "within 5 feet", not "within your reach".

As I wrote in my reply to Yunru I can see that, but it's already a finesse weapon so I'm not suggesting a change there, and I'm not suggesting that Rogues get whip proficiency by default, and whether they wield it in their main-hand or off-hand doesn't actually change the utility of that trick. (Well, actually, it would be slightly less useful in their off-hand because they lose the damage bonus.)

Just to correct something that some of the things that you have said earlier implied:

You lose your ability bonus to damage for attacks that you make using the bonus action granted by two-weapon fighting. Not for attacks made with an "off"-hand. (There is no such thing as an off-hand in 5e.)
So if you're holding a Rapier in one hand and a whip in the other, you can make an attack with the whip at range one round, with full damage, then the next round if the enemy moves closer you can make an attack with the rapier instead, also with full damage. If you have Extra Attacks, you could even make an attack with the rapier with one attack, and an attack with the whip with the other, both with full damage bonus.

 

[Guest 6801328]

You lose your ability bonus to damage for attacks that you make using the bonus action granted by two-weapon fighting. Not for attacks made with an "off"-hand. (There is no such thing as an off-hand in 5e.)
So if you're holding a Rapier in one hand and a whip in the other, you can make an attack with the whip at range one round, with full damage, then the next round if the enemy moves closer you can make an attack with the rapier instead, also with full damage. If you have Extra Attacks, you could even make an attack with the rapier with one attack, and an attack with the whip with the other, both with full damage bonus.

Yes, totally true. I should be more precise with that language.

But now I'm a little confused; what is that an argument for/against or explanation for? The current Dual-Wielding Feat would allow that, but it would only be useful in some very, very edge cases (e.g., you've got one enemy within 5', another one within 10', attacking each once would be more useful than attacking one twice, and you have no movement left for the turn).

Or is it simply a clarification on how it works?

I haven't seen a response yet to my breakdown of weapon budgets. Did I overlook something with that analysis?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Or is it simply a clarification on how it works?

Yep. Some of the phrasing you were using made me wonder whether you thought that offhand attacks wouldn't get the damage bonus, so I wanted to check.

I haven't seen a response yet to my breakdown of weapon budgets. Did I overlook something with that analysis?

I don't have anything to say on that score. As far as I know, they didn't design the table on the basis of some sort of budget, but just with what seemed to fit with both balance and commonsense. For example Finesse weapons aren't capped because that is how the budget works, but because anything larger than a rapier is too heavy to be based upon reflexes and balance rather than atheticism and force.

Thus whips only do d4 damage, not because the designers made a serious maths error, but just because they didn't see getting hit with a whip as dealing as much damage as getting hit with an axe or a spear. Likewise they aren't light because they saw whips as something that couldn't be dual-wielded without specialised training.

 

[Yunru]

I don't think that reach interacts with Sentinel very effectively. (Unless its been errataed or something.) Most of the abilities require a foe "within 5 feet", not "within your reach".

The important one is the one that doesn't.
You can reduce a creature you hit's speed to 0. With reach that means they're stuck 10ft away from you, probably with no other option than a weaker/improvised ranged attack.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The important one is the one that doesn't.
You can reduce a creature you hit's speed to 0. With reach that means they're stuck 10ft away from you, probably with no other option than a weaker/improvised ranged attack.

Only works with an opportunity attack though. So they have to be moving out of your 10ft reach before you get to halt them. If their melee attack was their strongest one, they would be moving towards you and Sentinel wouldn't stop them.

 

[Yunru]

In that case Sentinel's doing it's job: making them attack you instead of the squishies.
Reach simply makes Sentinel more punishing.

 

[Einlanzer0]

One thing worth considering with the whip is how long the skill spectrum is in using one effectively, which is not true of most simple weapons (you have a basic ability to wield it, or you don't). Someone merely being "proficient" in the use of the whip is not likely to be able to do nearly as much with one as someone who would be considered a "master" with one.

So, in that context, I think a whipmaster feat that provides some very interesting flavor and mechanical bonuses would be perfectly appropriate and fun to tinker with.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I think a whipmaster feat that provides some very interesting flavor and mechanical bonuses would be perfectly appropriate and fun to tinker with.

Thank you. This is my entire point. It would be fun.