D&D 5E (2014) Level 6 PCs Kill CR 23 Dragon

[Grazzt]

I bet four level 6 Necromancers could kill a bog-standard MM CR 23 Ancient Blue Dragon if it refused to run away, if the DM went by RAW on how heavy obscurement works, and if the DM ruled that skeletons whose Necromancer is killed keep obeying their orders until the 24 hour duration is up.

(Use advantage from heavy obscurement to counter disadvantage from long range and/or Frightful Presence.)

That is of course why you should never run bog-standard MM Ancient Dragons. Always make them spellcasters.

Wouldn't the dragon's blindsight cancel any benefit the party hoped to gain from a heavily obscured area? Also dragon can just fly around and drop lightning on them as it pleases.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Wouldn't the dragon's blindsight cancel any benefit the party hoped to gain from a heavily obscured area? Also dragon can just fly around and drop lightning on them as it pleases.

Blindsight is surprisingly short-ranged. If the dragon is refusing to run away (big assumption--dragons are really good at hit-and-run), you'd ideally spread your Necromancers out over a wide area and have each one of them drop a Fog Cloud to get heavy obscurement. The dragon may be able to breath lightning on some of the skeletons (breath weapon is only 10' wide, so it's only hitting maybe 25%-30% of a given necromancer's skeletons each turn) but each round he takes approximately 75-85 HP of damage (depending on skeleton archer weaponry), degrading his HP by about 1/6, while he's only degrading the enemy by (25-30)/4 = 1/16 to 1/12, even less on the rounds when he doesn't breath lightning. Plus, there's whatever the Necromancers themselves manage to do, which admittedly isn't much (on the order of 10-13 HP per round if they spam Fire Bolt).

It's not by any means a sure thing for the Necromancers and there's a lot of variables in the situation including the way the Necromancers position their skeletons, how the dragon makes initial contact (dive-bomb?), how the skeletons are equipped, etc. But if I had to take four level 6 PCs up against a CR 23 dragon that wouldn't retreat, Necromancers are what I'd pick, and I'd bet on myself to win.

But a dragon played more tactically would of course wipe them out, sooner or later. If nothing else he could just wait until nightfall and then exploit stealth and superior (120') darkvision to the hilt.

 

[MostlyDm]

Blindsight is surprisingly short-ranged. If the dragon is refusing to run away (big assumption--dragons are really good at hit-and-run), you'd ideally spread your Necromancers out over a wide area and have each one of them drop a Fog Cloud to get heavy obscurement. The dragon may be able to breath lightning on some of the skeletons (breath weapon is only 10' wide, so it's only hitting maybe 25%-30% of a given necromancer's skeletons each turn) but each round he takes approximately 75-85 HP of damage (depending on skeleton archer weaponry), degrading his HP by about 1/6, while he's only degrading the enemy by (25-30)/4 = 1/16 to 1/12, even less on the rounds when he doesn't breath lightning. Plus, there's whatever the Necromancers themselves manage to do, which admittedly isn't much (on the order of 10-13 HP per round if they spam Fire Bolt).

It's not by any means a sure thing for the Necromancers and there's a lot of variables in the situation including the way the Necromancers position their skeletons, how the dragon makes initial contact (dive-bomb?), how the skeletons are equipped, etc. But if I had to take four level 6 PCs up against a CR 23 dragon that wouldn't retreat, Necromancers are what I'd pick, and I'd bet on myself to win.

But a dragon played more tactically would of course wipe them out, sooner or later. If nothing else he could just wait until nightfall and then exploit stealth and superior (120') darkvision to the hilt.

Also depends on how "never retreat" is defined, I'd think. Based on your comments about spacing, it sounds like some hit-and-run would be permissible? What counts as retreating? Are we good so long as the dragon didn't completely leave the field of battle, like to the point that we end initiative?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Also depends on how "never retreat" is defined, I'd think. Based on your comments about spacing, it sounds like some hit-and-run would be permissible? What counts as retreating? Are we good so long as the dragon didn't completely leave the field of battle, like to the point that we end initiative?

I don't think "end initiative" is a meaningful metric because it's not well-defined anyway; but let's say "as long as all the skeletons have something to shoot at every round, I think the Necromancers will win." That constrains but doesn't completely eliminate hit-and-run. It does mean though that we don't have to argue about how the dragon's burrowing speed works and whether it's compatible with the terrain.

 

[Draegn]

Zaard I do not remember the book, it is rather old, however it was about the ecology of dragons and was full of tricks that a dragon might do. For example if in a lair pelting the party with claw fulls of coins or if large enough beating their wings to create a storm of coins. Dragons also had many more attack forms such as belly flopping, stomping, tail smacks, wing buffets, kicks and so on.

This book was not a TSR or WotC book.

 

[Zardnaar]

to be fair, in older editions of D&D, it was quite common to add the levels of the party members and compare them with the hit dice of the enemy. Four x 6th level = 24 levels, vs. 1 monster of 23rd level. It is totally doable, although you should expect everyone bleeding badly, possibly 3 out of four corpses. Since you have a bunch of CR 10+ monsters for PCs, its more like 40+ levels vs. 23 levels, and victory is pretty common.

in AD&D, if you had four sixth level wizards, they could spit out 24d6 damage by means of four 6d6 attacks. If one or two of them rolled high, and the 23 hit die monster rolled low on their hit points, they could totally drop the dragon in the first round.

What happened to you guys in 3rd and 4th edition? Did they swap out your brisket and jack daniels with Tofu and diet soda?

Who hamstrung characters so badly that an adventuring party became a squadron of cannon fodder?

Dragons have been getting toned down since their 2E glory.

 

[Zardnaar]

the 3e dragons were ridiculous, and the 4edragons were nearly unassailable. About the only thing that got reduced was breath weapon damage.

3E Dragons were weak relative to incoming power, 2E ones boat load of damage, magic weapons required to hurt them, spells, spell resistance as a flat % chance of failure, ACs in the 28-32 range on the bigger ones.

 

[Flamestrike]

Blindsight is surprisingly short-ranged. If the dragon is refusing to run away (big assumption--dragons are really good at hit-and-run), you'd ideally spread your Necromancers out over a wide area and have each one of them drop a Fog Cloud to get heavy obscurement. The dragon may be able to breath lightning on some of the skeletons (breath weapon is only 10' wide, so it's only hitting maybe 25%-30% of a given necromancer's skeletons each turn) but each round he takes approximately 75-85 HP of damage (depending on skeleton archer weaponry), degrading his HP by about 1/6, while he's only degrading the enemy by (25-30)/4 = 1/16 to 1/12, even less on the rounds when he doesn't breath lightning. Plus, there's whatever the Necromancers themselves manage to do, which admittedly isn't much (on the order of 10-13 HP per round if they spam Fire Bolt).

It's not by any means a sure thing for the Necromancers and there's a lot of variables in the situation including the way the Necromancers position their skeletons, how the dragon makes initial contact (dive-bomb?), how the skeletons are equipped, etc. But if I had to take four level 6 PCs up against a CR 23 dragon that wouldn't retreat, Necromancers are what I'd pick, and I'd bet on myself to win.

But a dragon played more tactically would of course wipe them out, sooner or later. If nothing else he could just wait until nightfall and then exploit stealth and superior (120') darkvision to the hilt.

Dude, we play totally different games.

 

[Zardnaar]

Dude, we play totally different games.

He is kind of right though, Dragons excel at hit and fade AKA wait for BW to recharge. 2-3 breathes and the party is often in a bad way. Or 1 if its an AD&D Shadow Dragon.

 

[Flamestrike]

Dragons have been getting toned down since their 2E glory.

No way. Still nasty.

Consider that 4 x 6th level PCs (XP budget: 5,600XP for 'hard) are expected to fight (and defeat) a CR 9 Dragon like a Young Blue (Hard encounter: 5000XP).

Heck, they're expected to be able to do so and also be able to take on and defeat another 5 or so medium-hard encounters that same day (either before or after the dragon).

This is its stats: AC 18, 152 Hp, 10d10 DC 16 breath weapon, perception +9 (blindsight), saves Str +5, Dex +4, Con +8, Wis +5, Int +2, Cha +7, flight 80' and burrow. 40 damage per round at +9.

It could feasably win initiative and drop at least two PCs with its breath weapon (even assuming they hit the encounter rested) before they can act. The next round it flies in, lands on one, rips him to shreds with 2 attacks for 4 failed death saves, then flies back out of range. Or just breathes death again.

A recharge in round 2 means 20d10 (110 points) worth of breath weapon damage. For PCs with 32-60 Hp (fully rested) each.

That encounter could go south, fast. And remember, it isnt even a 'deadly' encounter for these PCs.

Throw a few magic items the PCs way, or an extra PC, or both and (assuming its the only encounter of the day) and you can bump that up to deadly via making it a CR 13 Adult White (10,000XP).