D&D 3E/3.5 Level Adjustment Debate Thread for CC 3.5 Overhaul Project

[Leopold]

dont forget to ad an area for Level Adjustment to most of these critters with an INT score. Gonna have to tear this one down and see what we come up with. Might be in the +5 or higher range...

 

[BOZ]

just for you, leo, no problem.

 

[Leopold]

Boz:

1. Description sounds good.
2. Can you change the display for Init to be:

Total (+Dex +Feats +Misc)

small nitpicking thing

EcL breakdown time!

Hit Dice:+17
Flight:+1
Natural Armor:+3
Special Attacks: Eye ray +1, Spells +1=+2
Special Qualities: Vision +1, AM Cone +1, SR +1=+3
Feats:3 Bonus feats=+1

EST. ECL: 29


Now since we are at higher level here, i don't feel that +12 is right. Natural armor doesn't come into play too much at the +20 level so let's take that out. Vision is big but not that important as there are ways to get around the 'no sneaky' deal. Eye ray for spells? Well it can cast multiple spells per round correct? Still valid in the higher levels. So is the AM Cone. SR is still valid so we keep that. Flying counts but at +20 levels there are ways to do that all day long.


Level Adjustment +7
ECL 24


Questions, comments, concerns?

 

[BOZ]

i'll leave that one open to debate for now.

 

[Leopold]

Level Adjustment for an Elder Orb? (split from CC overhaul thread)

ok, i've split the thread again. i got tired of having to search through the thread to find the "finished" versions, so i moved them all here. also, from now on, i will have a "working version" of the current monster we are working on, so that you can all see as it evolves. that thread is stickied, so you won't have a hard time finding it. it's a closed thread also, to confine all the chatter and discussion to this thread. i'm going to be editing out a lot of the old discussion which has been resolved in the final matter, to reduce the size of this thread.

anyone got problems with an ECL of 24 and LA of +7 for the Elder Beholder??

And the Hamydrad has 5 feats:

Ability Focus (special charm) (B), Alertness, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will

with 4 HD it should only have 2 normal. Which one is bonus besides ability focus?

 

[Krishnath]

Leo, the regular beholder has a LA of +11, the Elder Orb should have at least the same.

 

[Leopold]

Leo, the regular beholder has a LA of +11, the Elder Orb should have at least the same.

11 huh? Why do you think that? I disagree with WOTC's LA's on 1/2 their creatures as they break the SS acid test mightlily.

I am interested in your opinions on this.

 

[Krishnath]

11 huh? Why do you think that? I disagree with WOTC's LA's on 1/2 their creatures as they break the SS acid test mightlily.

I am interested in your opinions on this.

*Cough* 1. Continous anti-magic field cone. 2. Natural Flight that cannot be dispelled or supressed (yep, it's extraordinary). 3. not one, not two, not even five, but ten very good spell-like abilities, useable each round, at will, at the same time, four of which can have the same target at once, which ignore most saves as they are touch attacks. 4. high stats. 5. good natural armor.

Is that enough? It's a friggin disintegrate cannon! whatever it meets, it has an answer to.

 

[Leopold]

1. Continous anti-magic field cone.

Can't cast spells in the area of the cone. I am still taking that into concideration.

2. Natural Flight that cannot be dispelled or supressed (yep, it's extraordinary).

Still useful but as higher level PC's can do this very easily so it's not that big of a factor.

3. not one, not two, not even five, but ten very good spell-like abilities, useable each round, at will, at the same time, four of which can have the same target at once, which ignore most saves as they are touch attacks.

Sorry, but it loses a bunch when it gets older:

Eye Rays (Su): An Elder Orb's eye rays function in exactly the same manner as those of standard beholders (see Monster Manual, p 25-26). The only difference between a standard beholder's and an Elder Orb's eye rays is that the Orb will have permanently lost the powers of at least 1d4 eyes, and its remaining eyes do not regenerate.

Still potent and taken into concideration.

4. high stats.

+1 to the LA mod, noted already

5. good natural armor.

Doesn't matter at higher level when this thing can't wear armor, shield, etc. and most things have +20 to hit anyway so it's moot.

Is that enough? It's a friggin disintegrate cannon! whatever it meets, it has an answer to.

Enough? no it's a start, I would adjust it higher but an LA of 11 is nowhere near what it needs to be or higher.

So let's do an LA of 13 just to say we did. Then give this guy a level in Wizard.

So we got a level 31 wizard vs. Elder Orb/Wiz 1.

Level 31 wizard has way more feats, more spells today, better saves, and perhaps more spells known. On the down side it has less hit points (62 avg for the wizard) than the beholder.

Now combat vs. one to the other is going to be a matter of who goes first at higher level. If the orb goes first it can't cast spells at the wizard if they are within 150' of each other as neither one can cast spells. Hand to hand combat is a toss up as the wizard COULD in theory hit but the beholder will prolly live longer to dish out more damage to the wizard.

Now spell slinging days are upon us! Beholder does not use his AMCone and we can cast spells aplenty!

1st round is upto whomever goes first.

Let's say Beholder goes first, let's assume 2 eyes disable 8 to use: Round one beholder blasts out 8 spells against the wizard (use the loadout from the descrip) casts darkness, uses disintegrate, wall of force around the wizard and then dispel magic on him. Let's say the disintegrate doesn't work, darkness does, and wall of force is up but wizard moves out, but manages to dispel half the wizards buffs.

Now the wizards turn: 1 Maximized cone of cold, 1 quickened cone of cold, it succeeds it's SR check against a paltry 30 (it needs to roll a 1 to succeed). So let's say it makes it's save vs cone of cold (although the DC is prolly in the obscene 30's) so that's 22d6=186/2=93 and then it fails the other cone 15d6=45 so we are at a total of 138 damage in one round alone.

Now I am probably gonna wager that there are better spells that I can pick to do this but i just picked these 2 off the top of my head and used them. This goes to show that toe to toe if a wizard 31 vs a supposed EL 30 beholder can whoop up on it very easily and perhaps kill it in 2 rounds. I personally would rather have the Level 31 wizard than the elder beholder so far.


Thoughts on this?






NOTE FOR BOZ:So there comes a good point that BOZ hasn't addressed. What is the typical spell and casting level of an Elder Beholder? Wizard 17? typical loadout for one of these? I know we've got critters that say "Cast spells like an 18th level Sorcerer" so what do we go off here? I see 13th level for the anti-magic cone, can we use that?

 

[BOZ]

NOTE FOR BOZ:So there comes a good point that BOZ hasn't addressed. What is the typical spell and casting level of an Elder Beholder? Wizard 17? typical loadout for one of these? I know we've got critters that say "Cast spells like an 18th level Sorcerer" so what do we go off here? I see 13th level for the anti-magic cone, can we use that?

the original text doesn't say anything about caster levels, but that's probably because it doesn't cast spells in the same way as humanoid wizards. so your guess is as good as mine? anyone have the MoF handy to look up those beholder wizards?