D&D 3E/3.5 Level Adjustment Debate Thread for CC 3.5 Overhaul Project

[Leopold]

the original text doesn't say anything about caster levels, but that's probably because it doesn't cast spells in the same way as humanoid wizards. so your guess is as good as mine? anyone have the MoF handy to look up those beholder wizards?

well from you text it can cast any spell it wants, at any level, and there is no limit to the amount of spells it can know. That to me makes the CR shoot through the roof as this thing could be on par with an archmage and just have 10 eyes stock full of 9th level badness and kill everything....am i reading this wrong??

 

[BOZ]

am i reading this wrong??

yes, i think so. let me get back to you on that one...

 

[BOZ]

well from you text it can cast any spell it wants, at any level, and there is no limit to the amount of spells it can know. That to me makes the CR shoot through the roof as this thing could be on par with an archmage and just have 10 eyes stock full of 9th level badness and kill everything....am i reading this wrong??

OK, here is the original text from the RoUM boxed set:

Elder Orbs use magic, developing verbal-only spells of their own, or buying or stealing spells from beings who use verbal magics. They employ potions, scrolls, and spellbooks as wizards do; they also utilize magic items that need not be worn to function and are activated by command words.
An Elder Orb can memorize one wizard spell for every 8 hit points it currently possesses. It can only hold one spell of each spell level in its mind at a time, and must study spells as mages do to retain its spellcasting abilities.
Spells widely known among Elder Orbs are few. Each one guards its knowledge jealously, vying for supremacy over others. Common Orb-spells are known to include: darkness, 15í radius; detect invisibility; dig; dispel magic; ESP; minor globe of invulnerability; power word, blind; protection from normal missiles; wall of force, and control death tyrant. This later spell is equivalent in power to a fourth-level wizard spell, but it is unusable by human minds of less than 18 intelligence.

 

[Krishnath]

Can't cast spells in the area of the cone. I am still taking that into concideration.

A beholder cam close or open it's central eye as a free action, thus negating the cannot cast spells into the cones area.

Still useful but as higher level PC's can do this very easily so it's not that big of a factor.

Yes, but most PC's cannot use it as an extraordinary ability, which means that it works in an Antimagic Field.

Sorry, but it loses a bunch when it gets older:

yes, but it gains spellcasting in return (or at least it should )

Still potent and taken into concideration.

Yes, but it should be worth at least a +3 to LA, if not a +4. Disintegrate at will is frigging good.

+1 to the LA mod, noted already

The high stats should be at least a +2 modifier to LA, not a +1.

Doesn't matter at higher level when this thing can't wear armor, shield, etc. and most things have +20 to hit anyway so it's moot.

Actually, it can use armor, it's called barding, you should look it up, nothing prevents a beholder from getting tailored barding. As for shields and weapons, there are several that can be used without the need for hands, these usually have the 'dancing' ability, so your point, not mine is moot and utterly pointless.

Enough? no it's a start, I would adjust it higher but an LA of 11 is nowhere near what it needs to be or higher.

So let's do an LA of 13 just to say we did. Then give this guy a level in Wizard.

So we got a level 31 wizard vs. Elder Orb/Wiz 1.

Level 31 wizard has way more feats, more spells today, better saves, and perhaps more spells known. On the down side it has less hit points (62 avg for the wizard) than the beholder.

Now combat vs. one to the other is going to be a matter of who goes first at higher level. If the orb goes first it can't cast spells at the wizard if they are within 150' of each other as neither one can cast spells. Hand to hand combat is a toss up as the wizard COULD in theory hit but the beholder will prolly live longer to dish out more damage to the wizard.

Now spell slinging days are upon us! Beholder does not use his AMCone and we can cast spells aplenty!

1st round is upto whomever goes first.

Let's say Beholder goes first, let's assume 2 eyes disable 8 to use: Round one beholder blasts out 8 spells against the wizard (use the loadout from the descrip) casts darkness, uses disintegrate, wall of force around the wizard and then dispel magic on him. Let's say the disintegrate doesn't work, darkness does, and wall of force is up but wizard moves out, but manages to dispel half the wizards buffs.

Now the wizards turn: 1 Maximized cone of cold, 1 quickened cone of cold, it succeeds it's SR check against a paltry 30 (it needs to roll a 1 to succeed). So let's say it makes it's save vs cone of cold (although the DC is prolly in the obscene 30's) so that's 22d6=186/2=93 and then it fails the other cone 15d6=45 so we are at a total of 138 damage in one round alone.

Now I am probably gonna wager that there are better spells that I can pick to do this but i just picked these 2 off the top of my head and used them. This goes to show that toe to toe if a wizard 31 vs a supposed EL 30 beholder can whoop up on it very easily and perhaps kill it in 2 rounds. I personally would rather have the Level 31 wizard than the elder beholder so far.

Thoughts on this?

Simple, two words: Antimagic Cone.
It stops the wizards spells dead in their tracks. Now, if it was against a LVL 30 fighter, paladin, or monk it would be another matter.

NOTE FOR BOZ:So there comes a good point that BOZ hasn't addressed. What is the typical spell and casting level of an Elder Beholder? Wizard 17? typical loadout for one of these? I know we've got critters that say "Cast spells like an 18th level Sorcerer" so what do we go off here? I see 13th level for the anti-magic cone, can we use that?

Edit: Fixed some templating errors.

 

[Leopold]

OK, here is the original text from the RoUM boxed set:

Elder Orbs use magic, developing verbal-only spells of their own, or buying or stealing spells from beings who use verbal magics. They employ potions, scrolls, and spellbooks as wizards do; they also utilize magic items that need not be worn to function and are activated by command words.
An Elder Orb can memorize one wizard spell for every 8 hit points it currently possesses. It can only hold one spell of each spell level in its mind at a time, and must study spells as mages do to retain its spellcasting abilities.
Spells widely known among Elder Orbs are few. Each one guards its knowledge jealously, vying for supremacy over others. Common Orb-spells are known to include: darkness, 15í radius; detect invisibility; dig; dispel magic; ESP; minor globe of invulnerability; power word, blind; protection from normal missiles; wall of force, and control death tyrant. This later spell is equivalent in power to a fourth-level wizard spell, but it is unusable by human minds of less than 18 intelligence.

Looks like it casts at Wizard Level=HD then as it gets a D8 HD and makes sense. Having this thing cast as a 8th level wizard negates this benefit. How's that?


K:

A beholder cam close or open it's central eye as a free action, thus negating the cannot cast spells into the cones area.

Boz already posted that this one is slightly different. At the beginning or it's turn it's open or closed. Where is this free action at anytime?

Yes, but most PC's cannot use it as an extraordinary ability, which means that it works in an Antimagic Field.

then we add it back into the LA

yes, but it gains spellcasting in return (or at least it should )

still only a +1 then

Yes, but it should be worth at least a +3 to LA, if not a +4. Disintegrate at will is frigging good.

not if it's got other spells which take up that eye.

The high stats should be at least a +2 modifier to LA, not a +1.

that's if it's a lower level HD critter with uber high scores. With a LA in the high 20's that's not that far off what a normal PC can have.

Actually, it can use armor, it's called barding, you should look it up, nothing prevents a beholder from getting tailored barding. As for shields and weapons, there are several that can be used without the need for hands, these usually have the 'dancing' ability, so your point, not mine is moot and utterly pointless.

arcane spell failure still needs to apply don't it?!?!?

Simple, two words: Antimagic Cone.
It stops the wizards spells dead in their tracks. Now, if it was against a LVL 30 fighter, paladin, or monk it would be another matter.

depends who goes first. A level 30 fighter would chew through this thing like a hot knife through butter.

 

[Knight Otu]

ok, what remains... anyone want to set an LA value?

For the Hamadryad, I'd propably go with a +2/+3. Most abilities are quite narrow in focus, but it also has a few strong abilities and good ability adjustments.

 

[Leopold]

For the Hamadryad, I'd propably go with a +2/+3. Most abilities are quite narrow in focus, but it also has a few strong abilities and good ability adjustments.

+3 on the safeside...too busy with the beholder to notice

 

[Krishnath]

Boz already posted that this one is slightly different. At the beginning or it's turn it's open or closed. Where is this free action at anytime?

Well, as it is basically an advanced beholder of great age, and not a different species, I would handle it as the MM beholder, I.e. open or close the eye as a free action.

not if it's got other spells which take up that eye.

Yes but it is only a 10% chance that it is that eye, concidering that a young beholder has ten eye stalks, and if I was playing a Elder Orb, I would get rid of practically anything else before I would lose disintegrate. So it should still factore in at a +2 or +3 at least.

that's if it's a lower level HD critter with uber high scores. With a LA in the high 20's that's not that far off what a normal PC can have.

No but it is still quite a bit above when you compare it to the average stats of say a 30th level character, not factoring in wishes and items, which an Elder Orb PC would have access to as well.

arcane spell failure still needs to apply don't it?!?!?

If the armor was made from the proper materials it would not matter, and besides, it is quite easy to retool bracers of armor into an item an elder orb could use.

depends who goes first. A level 30 fighter would chew through this thing like a hot knife through butter.

Yes, but a 30th level wiz would be deader than a doornail.

 

[Leopold]

Well, as it is basically an advanced beholder of great age, and not a different species, I would handle it as the MM beholder, I.e. open or close the eye as a free action.

If this is the case then we really need to change the description of it's ability then as it doesn't get this in the main description and this makes a big difference as you say in the LA.




Yes but it is only a 10% chance that it is that eye, concidering that a young beholder has ten eye stalks, and if I was playing a Elder Orb, I would get rid of practically anything else before I would lose disintegrate. So it should still factore in at a +2 or +3 at least.

but it loses 30% of the eyes correct? It has a choice or is it random? How can this be decided, if it's random I say leave the LA at +1, if it's static then +2.



No but it is still quite a bit above when you compare it to the average stats of say a 30th level character, not factoring in wishes and items, which an Elder Orb PC would have access to as well.

I would still give it a +1 comparitively speaking to a 30th level wizard with headband of intellect, books, rods, items, etc.


If the armor was made from the proper materials it would not matter, and besides, it is quite easy to retool bracers of armor into an item an elder orb could use.

this is true, but is this armor standard? it can wear amulets, headbands, and cloaks? would be expensive but it can be boosted and used. but is this standard equipment or is this from another book?


Yes, but a 30th level wiz would be deader than a doornail.

if it had antimagic eye up the wizard is toast, no questions asked.

How bout we settle on a +11 then?

 

[Leopold]

Well, as it is basically an advanced beholder of great age, and not a different species, I would handle it as the MM beholder, I.e. open or close the eye as a free action.

If this is the case then we really need to change the description of it's ability then as it doesn't get this in the main description and this makes a big difference as you say in the LA.




Yes but it is only a 10% chance that it is that eye, concidering that a young beholder has ten eye stalks, and if I was playing a Elder Orb, I would get rid of practically anything else before I would lose disintegrate. So it should still factore in at a +2 or +3 at least.

but it loses 30% of the eyes correct? It has a choice or is it random? How can this be decided, if it's random I say leave the LA at +1, if it's static then +2.



No but it is still quite a bit above when you compare it to the average stats of say a 30th level character, not factoring in wishes and items, which an Elder Orb PC would have access to as well.

I would still give it a +1 comparitively speaking to a 30th level wizard with headband of intellect, books, rods, items, etc.


If the armor was made from the proper materials it would not matter, and besides, it is quite easy to retool bracers of armor into an item an elder orb could use.

this is true, but is this armor standard? it can wear amulets, headbands, and cloaks? would be expensive but it can be boosted and used. but is this standard equipment or is this from another book?


Yes, but a 30th level wiz would be deader than a doornail.

if it had antimagic eye up the wizard is toast, no questions asked.

How bout we settle on a +11 then?