Level Adjustment for Genasi

[Technik4]

Compare a Half-Ogre to an Orc.

You should actually do a comparison after a statement like that. As someone else mentioned, you forgot to mention some very nice bennies the half-ogre gets. Somehow you also forgot to mention reach, one of the biggest reasons the race is so powerful (yes I know in 3.5 reach is just a 1st level spell away, don't remind me).

Any race with an ECL modifier where you don't have to take monster levels (or sometimes, even if you do) looks badly when compared at lower levels. Its a fact. So don't compare them at level 2 and announce one of them "weak" (which I find a tad ridiculous).

Also, a Rog1/BrbX is not the smartest build - you're trading a level of barbarian advancement (which is nothing to snub in 3.5) for 8+Int skill points (and youre an orc, basically you have a low Int) and sneak attack (something a barbarian isn't necessarily going to want to bother with). And then adding that damage as if the orc barbarian is going to get a sneak attack every round, and mentioning that they are better at range?

I disagree. Half-ogres are the most powerful +1 race or a slightly weak +2 race. Genasi are a slightly weak +1 race (compared to other +1 races).

Technik

 

[FrankTrollman]

Yes. Orcs are better at range. They have no dexterity penalty and no to-hit penalty for being large. Duh.

No, I didn't bother with a full comparison.

The Orc gets an entire extra hit die, the traps ability, better saves, a higher skill rank maximum, the ability to resist Blasphemy and Cloud Kill better, more resistance to Circle of Death etc. etc. etc.

The Half Ogre gets +2 Con, Reach without a 1st level spell expenditure, natty armor, a size penalty, and a bonus to-hit in bright light.

Woo-hoo.

The Orc is... better. Not a whole lot better, but consider that the Orc has the option of taking a Ranger or barbarian level and having a better melee attack bonus. That and as soon as either one of them is polymorphed the Half-Ogre has no advantage at all, and simply pays an entire level for no benefit (actually a penalty, as he can only be transformed into weaker creature types).

---

As to Native Outsiders being dismissed, yes they can. They are whisked away, and have an 80% chance of being placed somewhere on the Material Plane.

That's a whole lot worse than Charm Person.

-Frank

 

[Technik4]

The Orc is... better.

I dont know why you insist on this rogue level. Just leave it at the orc being a better barbarian, it makes for a stronger argument. Of course the orc could multiclass instead, but especially in the mid-levels this could be seen as a poor decision. What good is find traps when your search ranks have been ignored for 5 levels? The orc has one extra HD which confers the following: slightly higher BAB, saves, skill ranks, and HP. Thats it. Is it something? Hecks yea, if it wasn't then half-ogres wouldn't be balanced at ECL +1 (which, imo, is dubious at best).

The half-ogre comes ahead on Attack and Damage Bonuses, and can attack with reach without a spell. The half-ogre is even when it comes to AC and saves (assuming a barbarian comparison). The half-ogre is behind when it comes to BAB and Hit points. These aren't my opinions, these are facts.

At 2nd level you're right - the orc is better. However even I (who tell people not to compare things at the highest level of play) will say that this comparison deserves a check-up around level 8. That one HD means a lot less now, especially because the Half-Ogre's 8 extra hit points (from higher constitution) have had time to mature. The orc is still up 1 point of BAB (which means he got his extra attack 1 level earlier, and will all the way up the level chart) but his attack bonus is probably still lower, as well as lower damage. At 8th level of play, if you want to compare bonuses against certain spells (when they have a chance of being cast on the character) you will find that it takes a Dominate Monster not a Dominate Person to trick the half-ogre. And a myriad more comparisons that basically cut even.

Back to the genasi, where did you get that native outsiders can be dismissed? I haven't seen it yet, is it in 3.5?

And while being dismissed is a whole lot worse than charm person (if what you say is true), it isn't much worse than a dominate person (or a hold person).

Technik

 

[FrankTrollman]

I dont know why you insist on this rogue level.

Because if I don't take a class which provides +0 BAB as the Orc's bonus level the Orc pulls too far ahead and it becomes hard to compare the two.

If an Orc has a +1 BAB class as a bonus level they have a better to-hit bonus. They also are going to get to an extra attack faster, and all that good stuff.

After the size penalty and stat bonuses of the Half Ogre, he has no to-hit bonus in melee over the Orc before the Orc takes his bonus level.

Therefore, in order to maintain comparison, the Orc has to take a Rogue level. If the Orc takes a Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian level he's obviously in the better position as a melee fighter - he's got a better to-hit bonus.

When you change an Orc Barbarian into a Half-Ogre Barbarian you are essentially multiclassing one level to get no to-hit bonus in exchange for doing more melee damage. The Rogue level is a better use of that level than changing your race is.

-Frank

 

[DM2]

As to Native Outsiders being dismissed, yes they can. They are whisked away, and have an 80% chance of being placed somewhere on the Material Plane.

That's a whole lot worse than Charm Person.

-Frank

No, they can't, as mentioned by several of us above. See where they quoted the definition of "native".

Further, here's the dismissal spell:

Dismissal
Abjuration
Level: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One extraplanar creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell forces an extraplanar creature back to its proper plane if it fails a special Will save (DC = spell’s save DC –
creature’s HD + your caster level). If the spell is successful, the creature is instantly whisked away, but there is a 20% chance
of actually sending the subject to a plane other than its own.

Note the spell (and Banishment too) targets extraplanar creatures. Here is the definition of extraplanar.

Extraplanar Subtype: A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that
travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with
creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar
subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in
its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if
they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral
Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

Emphasis added is mine.

I think that sums it up.

DM2

 

[FrankTrollman]

Well, I don't see a "3.5" tag on this discussion, and this discussion is about the Genasi.

The book with the Genasi is most likely the FRCS.

And it says:

Second, spells and effects that target extraplanar creatures may affect planetouched characters.

That's what the Genasi actually say. Their home plane is the prime material, and they can get targetted as an extraplanar creature anyway.

That sucks and blows.

And that's what the Genasi actually say.

This is not countermanded in Races of Feyrun or anything, it's plain text and totally inescapable.

-Frank

 

[gfunk]

With all this talk of half-ogres and orcs, people seem to have forgotten one very important fact:



HOBGOBLINS ARE ALSO +1 ECL
+2 Con, +2 Wis, 60 ft darkvision, and a couple of skill bonuses are all you get.

With the advent of 3.5, the sub-par ECL on the hobgob is what all others should be compared.

 

[Camarath]

This is not countermanded in Races of Feyrun or anything, it's plain text and totally inescapable.

Unless of course you update to 3.5 or house rule it in your 3.0 game.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Yeah....

Hobgoblins are also woefully underpowered.

We can compare them without level loss to Elves or Dwarves, and they come out very well if you didn't intend to take advantage of the substantial list of special abilities which elves or dwarves both enjoy. And they come out mediocre or a little poor if in fact you were going to use the substantial abilities of the elf or dwarf.

With a level adjustment they are simply laughable. In the original DMG and Monster Manual they were listed with no Level Adjustment (which at that time was called an "Level Equivalent Modifier"), and this was not unbalancing.

In Savage Nerfing, Hobgoblins were given a Level Adjustment, and that got copied into the 3.5 Rules. But it isn't because Hobgoblins were overpowered with no Level Adjustment.

-Frank

 

[gfunk]

In Savage Nerfing, Hobgoblins were given a Level Adjustment, and that got copied into the 3.5 Rules. But it isn't because Hobgoblins were overpowered with no Level Adjustment.

I'll have to agree with your sentiments Frank.

There was a post recently on the WotC boards regarding Savage Species. The author (Rich Redman, I think) pointed out that they "bumped" the ECLs a little bit in order to make core races more powerful than monstrous races.

I think in many cases they want way too far. The Mind Flayer and the Ogre Mage are two that spring to mind. At the level they reach "full power" they will have been far eclipsed by all PCs.

The hobgoblin LA +1 is particularly infuriating due to all the benefits that dwarves enjoy without LA.

They get:
1) +2 Con (huge, for all classes)
2) -2 Cha (despite attempts to the contrary, Cha is still the dump stat)
3) +4 stability bonus on many relevant and frequently used combat actions'
4) No reduced speed in armor
5) 60' darkvision
6) +2 saves vs. spells, spell-like abilities, and poison
7) A variety of skill bonuses when it comes to dealing with stone
8) Racial weapon familarity
[added]9) +4 dodge bonus vs. giants

They lose:
1) Movement (but 20 ft ain't a bad trade-off)

Quite clearly deserving of a +1 LA if you ask me.