SimonMoon5
First Post
Imho, Genasi LA is all about polymorph.
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Level Adjustment for Genasi
- Thread starter DreadPollock
- Start date
I'm playing an earth genasi monk right now (close to 10th level now (ECL 11).
His focus is his high strength...sundering weapons, grappling and just smashing things, more or less.
I've aquired magic items to augment his strengths (high strength, etc), and feats to complement his earth genasi nature.
Races of Faerun has some nice earth genasi specific feats that further enhance their elemental nature as well.
I never considered the race sub-par.
Of course, I'll also mention we have fairly high stats in this campaign, so that can compensate for a lot in some cases (though making less of a difference at higher levels).
DM2
His focus is his high strength...sundering weapons, grappling and just smashing things, more or less.
I've aquired magic items to augment his strengths (high strength, etc), and feats to complement his earth genasi nature.
Races of Faerun has some nice earth genasi specific feats that further enhance their elemental nature as well.
I never considered the race sub-par.
Of course, I'll also mention we have fairly high stats in this campaign, so that can compensate for a lot in some cases (though making less of a difference at higher levels).
DM2
I have a player in my game(s) who has played like 5 or 6 earth genasi fighters. He is almost always the most powerful combatant in the party (though he pays for it with few out of combat skills). Having a bonus to both Strength and Con pays dividends for a fighter right from the start and continues throughout his career. He makes up the loss of BAB right away and makes up the loss of HD over the course of the campaign while still gaining the bonus to damage and fortitude save.
Further, many is the time I have had casters attempt to hold the guy only to be flummoxed by his "native outsider" status. It has gotten to the point where I give them a spot check to notice it before they cast they spell.
Finally, the Races of Faerun feats which are opened up for Genasi are, on the whole, more powerful than average. For example, the earth genasi gets a feat that grants Combat Expertise without having to have a 13 intelligence -- more min/max goodness for our friend the Strength/Con fighter.
In summary, I would say that +1 ECL is exactly where they should be. At least for the Earth Genasi which is the one I have seen the most.
Further, many is the time I have had casters attempt to hold the guy only to be flummoxed by his "native outsider" status. It has gotten to the point where I give them a spot check to notice it before they cast they spell.
Finally, the Races of Faerun feats which are opened up for Genasi are, on the whole, more powerful than average. For example, the earth genasi gets a feat that grants Combat Expertise without having to have a 13 intelligence -- more min/max goodness for our friend the Strength/Con fighter.
In summary, I would say that +1 ECL is exactly where they should be. At least for the Earth Genasi which is the one I have seen the most.
reapersaurus
Explorer
oh, come on.
LOOK at the stats for the genasi:
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
- Darkvision
- Pass Without Trace once/day as a 5th level Druid
+1 save vs. earth effects/ 5 levels
- Considered "Native Outsiders"
Compared to the Wood Elf:
— +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution.
— Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
— Low-light vision.
— Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow.
— +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
IMO, it's pretty clear which one is BETTER (the elf) - forget about the genasi being worth an entire level. In other words, build 2 characters, give the elf a level of fighter (or ranger), THEN compare the two (extra HD, extra feat, etc).
LA is for suckers in 3E, unless it is a big benefit, like the half-ogre.
Levels are just worth too much to waste them on tiny stuff like a +2 here or a small ability there... not only are you a precious class level behind, but you're even one Hit Die behind, which might make all the difference against spells or fear effects which wouldn't be able to be used on you unless you had that one less HD.
LOOK at the stats for the genasi:
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
- Darkvision
- Pass Without Trace once/day as a 5th level Druid
+1 save vs. earth effects/ 5 levels
- Considered "Native Outsiders"
Compared to the Wood Elf:
— +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution.
— Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
— Low-light vision.
— Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow.
— +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
IMO, it's pretty clear which one is BETTER (the elf) - forget about the genasi being worth an entire level. In other words, build 2 characters, give the elf a level of fighter (or ranger), THEN compare the two (extra HD, extra feat, etc).
LA is for suckers in 3E, unless it is a big benefit, like the half-ogre.
Levels are just worth too much to waste them on tiny stuff like a +2 here or a small ability there... not only are you a precious class level behind, but you're even one Hit Die behind, which might make all the difference against spells or fear effects which wouldn't be able to be used on you unless you had that one less HD.
FrankTrollman
First Post
Half Ogres are not over powered. They aren't even good.
Compare a Half-Ogre to an Orc.
The Half Ogre is down one level, and has a Size Penalty to hit. He's also got a strength of +6. The Orc gets one level of his choice, and a strength bonus of +4.
So compared to an Orc, he's +1 to-hit in melee from the strength, but -1 to-hit in melee from the size.
So in melee, he's got no bonus to hit at all. At range, of course, he has a substantial penalty to-hit.
So when comparing a Half-Ogre Barbarian 1 to an Orc character, don't compare a Barbarian 2 - compare an Orc Barbarian 1 who multiclassed into Rogue, Monk, Cleric, or some other class that gives no BAB increase at all.
So the Half-Ogre is getting about +2 melee damage from using a bigger weapon, and +1.5 melee damage from using a two handed weapon with a strength bonus 1 higher.
The Orc, on the other hand, has an extra level of Rogue - and has the same melee attack bonus and does an extra 3.5 damage from sneak attacking.
An Orc Barbarian 1/Rogue 1 is an all-around slightly better character than is a Half-Ogre Barbarian 1. And that is the comparison. You do just as much damage in melee, perform better at range, and can use normal equipment and have a vast pile of skills.
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Oh, and being a Native Outsider is all bad. Trading the ability to be Charm Personed for the ability to be Dismissed isn't a good trade. The anti-outsider spells are universally worse than the anti-person spells.
Genasi are weak like a zombie. They are not quite as good as Elves, Dwarves, or Halflings - there's no reason why you would have to spend a level for them.
-Frank
Compare a Half-Ogre to an Orc.
The Half Ogre is down one level, and has a Size Penalty to hit. He's also got a strength of +6. The Orc gets one level of his choice, and a strength bonus of +4.
So compared to an Orc, he's +1 to-hit in melee from the strength, but -1 to-hit in melee from the size.
So in melee, he's got no bonus to hit at all. At range, of course, he has a substantial penalty to-hit.
So when comparing a Half-Ogre Barbarian 1 to an Orc character, don't compare a Barbarian 2 - compare an Orc Barbarian 1 who multiclassed into Rogue, Monk, Cleric, or some other class that gives no BAB increase at all.
So the Half-Ogre is getting about +2 melee damage from using a bigger weapon, and +1.5 melee damage from using a two handed weapon with a strength bonus 1 higher.
The Orc, on the other hand, has an extra level of Rogue - and has the same melee attack bonus and does an extra 3.5 damage from sneak attacking.
An Orc Barbarian 1/Rogue 1 is an all-around slightly better character than is a Half-Ogre Barbarian 1. And that is the comparison. You do just as much damage in melee, perform better at range, and can use normal equipment and have a vast pile of skills.
---
Oh, and being a Native Outsider is all bad. Trading the ability to be Charm Personed for the ability to be Dismissed isn't a good trade. The anti-outsider spells are universally worse than the anti-person spells.
Genasi are weak like a zombie. They are not quite as good as Elves, Dwarves, or Halflings - there's no reason why you would have to spend a level for them.
-Frank
Camarath said:
Which are huge bonuses.
For those that really want to roleplay someone that big and ugly (heh), the half-ogre is one of the ECL+1 races that I'd say is definitely worth the trade-offs.
My earth-genasi race is a much dodgier choice compared to half-ogre...though my character is still very effective, and I am enjoying the earth-genasi flavor regardless.
DM2
DM2
