"Level" based feats and ECL

[brehobit]

Hi all,
Leadership and Vow of Poverty are based on "level". How would you handle an ECL race here?

I'm going to argue for VoP as clearly using ECL. A 5th level drow in a 7th level party will normally have the equipment similar to the rest of the party. Similarly, when making higher level PCs for a game, that drow would (in any game I've seen) start with the same wealth as everyone else.

For leadership, I think ECL also makes sense: it's the power level, not the hit dice, that are at play here.

Thoughts?

Mark

 

[eamon]

Sounds reasonable to me. I don't have any practical experience with either though, so I'm not sure! Many other feats suffer related problems: you wouldn't allow improved critical for a character that doesn't have the full +8Bab merely since he's ECL8, either. Leadership could fall into that category too. In the case of Vow of poverty, I must admit I can't see how the vow shouldn't scale with the wealth you're giving up.

 

[Shin Okada]

You mean the ECL of the PC who takes leadership feat, not the cohort, right?

If so, I say you should use that drows level, not ECL, as per the rule.

There are many other feats and abilities which requires or related to level (HD). And ECL cannot replace it. That is the disadvantage of playing LA +X races.

 

[WhatGravitas]

That is the disadvantage of playing LA +X races.

Well, getting a terrible caster level, having (usually) worse saves and hp, as well as being hurt more easily by HD-dependant effects is usually bad enough... - at least I think so.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Shin Okada]

Well, getting a terrible caster level, having (usually) worse saves and hp, as well as being hurt more easily by HD-dependant effects is usually bad enough... - at least I think so.

Cheers, LT.

But Leadership and Vow of Poverty are on the "cheasy" side from the beginning. I don't feel the need of making them even slightly easy-to access.

 

[Storme]

I don't agree.

So...a level 6 ogre mage (who runs with a level 18 party) should get a level 4 cohort to take with him on adventures? A DM (or a party) would be cool with that? I don't think so. Doesn't this eliminate leadership as an option for some monster character choices?

A level 7 dark elf adventuring with a group of level 8 characters is.......level 8 for purposes of experience, challenge level, etc. ECL are considered "levels" of a monster character. A character level 6 paladin, 3 halfling outrider is considered level 9. And a level 6 paladin deep gnome (level adj 3) is also considered level 9.

Leadership is based on the power, success, and Character Level (not class level) of the character. I can't imagine NOT using ECL. To do so would seem to me to be unnecessarily impairing a character.


Storme

 

[WhatGravitas]

But Leadership and Vow of Poverty are on the "cheasy" side from the beginning. I don't feel the need of making them even slightly easy-to access.

True, but still. They ask for "character level". Not for HD. ECL (effective character level) is just that. Note that all characters have an ECL (usually equal their HD), unless they have a LA - in which case the ECL != HD - but it's still the effective character level - and I'd assume that's basically the character level for all means.

Cheers, LT.

 

[irdeggman]

True, but still. They ask for "character level". Not for HD. ECL (effective character level) is just that. Note that all characters have an ECL (usually equal their HD), unless they have a LA - in which case the ECL != HD - but it's still the effective character level - and I'd assume that's basically the character level for all means.

Cheers, LT.

Does this mean that you should count the LA when calculating whether or not the character is "eligible" to take the Leadership feat? Prerequisite 6th level.

Noting of course that level based feats (3, 6, 9, etc) are specifically not granted by LA (only hit dice).

This interpretation will have huge ramifications.

There are other things that also say character level.

Like spell like abilities and the such.

LA says specifically what it applies to and that is all.

HD are considered "levels" for purposes of other things.

 

[nittanytbone]

There are many other feats and abilities which requires or related to level (HD). And ECL cannot replace it. That is the disadvantage of playing LA +X races.

Agreed.

In this case, a drow with leadership isn't a big issue. But imagine a race with a CHA boost (such as an Aasimar) exploiting such a loophope.

Likewise, VoP is very clearly keyed to character level. Level Adjust sucks.

The better solution, IMHO, is less direct. I'd advise to (A) avoid LA races, (B) use LA buyoff from UA, (C) use the Savage Species progressions, (D) force everyone to take equal LA via races or templates so that all players are on an equal footing, or (E) devise a "lesser" version of the race with no LA.

 

[brehobit]

Does this mean that you should count the LA when calculating whether or not the character is "eligible" to take the Leadership feat? Prerequisite 6th level.

Noting of course that level based feats (3, 6, 9, etc) are specifically not granted by LA (only hit dice).

This interpretation will have huge ramifications.

There are other things that also say character level.

Yep,
I think I'd treat VoP and leadership differently than others (including leadership qualifications) because it makes sense for those two (VoP for balancing expected wealth and leadership for seeming reasonable (followers come based on power, not some Hit Die mechanic). I'd keep the others the same. But I don't think it's clear cut at all (which is why I asked)

Mark