Level of competency via Skill Ranks

[Azgulor]

If it's listed in the core D&D rulebooks, I've overlooked it, but how do you equate skill ranks to mastery of a field in your d20 games? Specifically, for fantasy - what skill ranks differentiate an apprentice, a journeyman, and a master craftsman? What # of skill ranks should a master weaponsmith have?

Note: I'm only interested in skill ranks as a measure of training/competency. No spellcasting/magic influence. If a trade guild is responsible for determining when someone is proficient enough to progress to the next classification, where are the break points? I've tried working backwards from DC, but it hasn't clicked in my head yet.

Thanks,

Azgulor

 

[LostSoul]

I wouldn't go by skill ranks but by the modifier.

+4 - apprentice
+7 - journeyman
+10 - master

A master swordsman (someone capable of producing masterwork swords all the time) might have 3 ranks, 18 Int, and Skill focus (craft). The apprentice might have 10 Int and 4 ranks.

edit: All of this is possible at 1st level if you bend the rules a bit and allow a "+2 to two skills" feat to apply to Craft (and something else). Something like "Blacksmith: Gain a +2 bonus to Craft (weaponsmithing) and Craft (armoursmithing)."

 

[adwyn]

I've gotta concur with Lost Soul - general mastery is generally around a +10. The ability to do the mindless (taking 0) and achieve the dificult every day (take 10 with a +10). It doesn't really matter how they get there either as long as they can do it.

 

[Azgulor]

I wouldn't go by skill ranks but by the modifier.

+4 - apprentice
+7 - journeyman
+10 - master

A master swordsman (someone capable of producing masterwork swords all the time) might have 3 ranks, 18 Int, and Skill focus (craft). The apprentice might have 10 Int and 4 ranks.

edit: All of this is possible at 1st level if you bend the rules a bit and allow a "+2 to two skills" feat to apply to Craft (and something else). Something like "Blacksmith: Gain a +2 bonus to Craft (weaponsmithing) and Craft (armoursmithing)."

This is the reason I said ranks versus skill total. By your example, our poor apprentice with his 10 Int is unlikely to ever reach master-level. Bonus gained by stats should reflect actual ability - I seek ranks as representative of knowledge gained in a subject. High stats might represent natural ability or insight to achieve the same result but not a same level of knowledge or mastery. I'm basing this on how prestige classes are built more than anything. Most have entrance requirements of x # of skill ranks .

Of course I subscribe to the "learn something every day" approach for NPC xp suggested by MaverickWeirdo on these boards and don't populate my world with 1st-level characters so I might be the exception rather than the norm in viewing skill ranks this way.

Thanks for the response.

Azgulor

 

[LostSoul]

This is the reason I said ranks versus skill total. Bonus gained by stats should reflect actual ability - I seek ranks as representative of knowledge gained in a subject. High stats might represent natural ability or insight to achieve the same result but not a same level of knowledge or mastery. I'm basing this on how prestige classes are built more than anything. Most have entrance requirements of x # of skill ranks .

Ah, I see. We probably look at things differently then - I see PrC's "x ranks" requirement as a metagame tool instead of anything "in world", and I don't think anyone would be able to tell the difference between Master A with +10 from 10 ranks and Master B with feats, high stats, and a few ranks.

But none of that's important...

Okay. So I guess I'd run it down like this:

4 ranks - apprentice
6-7 ranks - journeyman
10 ranks - master

Are you incorporating Feats into this at all? If so:

+4 (2 ranks, skill focus) - apprentice
+7 (4 ranks, skill focus) - journeyman
+10 (7 ranks, skill focus) - master

In game terms, people would see Skill Focus as training just like they see skill ranks (in my opinion).

 

[Ambrus]

IMC, I had a guild have competency exams for members who wished to progress to higher ranks:

Apprentice: 1 ranks
Journeyman: 4 ranks
Master: 10 ranks

Essentially, someone who puts a single rank in a skill has a modest amount of experience, just enough to convince a master that he is worth training to improve. A journeyman is a 1st level character (usually an expert or commoner) who has applied himself, has maxed out his skill ranks and is ready to begin journeying to ply his trade unsupervised; much like a 1st level adventurer striking out for the first time. A master is someone who's accumulated a good deal of experience in his field and continued to hone his skill. 10 ranks is achievable at 7th level is a nice round number and, I think, the highest level which most dedicated NPCs commonly reach before reaching their peak level-wise.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

In an informal situation, mastery would probably be +8 as the tradesman's ego (or need to advertise) would get the better of him.

In a formal situation, I can easily see where skill ranks would be more important than skill bonus. The lastest incarnation we saw of this was in Revenge of the Sith

.... spoilers ahead, just in case you care ....



where Anikin was denied the title of master even though he was clearly more powerful than most masters on the council. This appears in, like, a zillion kung fu movies. The young guy with talent doesn't get as much respect as the person who has spent years perfecting his craft.

So it depends on how regimented your setting is.

 

[Crothian]

I think these are way to low. Gaining levels should happen for everyone not just adventures. I think an apprentice would be 4 ranks, Journey man 10 rank, and master around 18 ranks. But I think of crasftsmen as highly compitant and not barely able to do their job.

 

[painandgreed]

I don't think there will ever be any hard and fast rules because I don't think there were any hard and fast rules in the real world. Aprentices were unpaid learners. journeymen were paid helpers, and masters worked for themselves. Usually* the title of master was given by a guild by the creation of a masterpeice (ie masterwork item). These are social and economic titles possibly even more than levels of skill. The son of a rich craftsman could probably get his master level before a poor boy who had to work off his training by being an apprentice and journeyman despite equal skill levels.

If you wanted to make it game levels, then you might say that an aprentice has any number of ranks in the skill. A journeyman has finished specific training in the skill represented by the feat skill focus. Technically a master should be able to create a mastework item which +10 is the level where it could be created by taking 10. It is quite possible to make a masterwork item with a lower skill modifier if you are willing to pay a little more if you mess up. With the money, anybody with +5 or higher should be able to accomplish the manufacture of a mastwork item eventually without having to get lucky. And that coudl be accomplished pretty easy with modifiers due to helpers and masterwork tools, both of which are just a question of money. One way to determine when when a eprson becomes a master is to say once they create their own set of masterwork tools without help, then they are worthy of the title master. Of course, creation of such would still be an economic issue as it may take years to save up the money to make the attempt.

*I haven't studied the subject, but if anybody wishes to desribe the aprentice/journeyman/master realationships and explain how they worked, and if they always worked the same from place to place or time to time in RL, that would be great.

 

[adwyn]

IRL I am an employer in a field roughly modeled on an apprentice/master level with minimal formal training and a lot of on the job experience. By and large I don't care whether its skill or inate ability that gets the job done as long as they can do it. I have seen people who can walk in the door and through personal ability and devotion quickly achieve the same mastery as those who have years of experience and little else. But here's the caveat, when the stuff hits the fan it's the experience that counts.

With no fumble system its hard to represent this, but a base skill level to enter a prestige class might. Anyone can have a good day (die roll) and pass the test for mastery, but a true master can do it every day and twice on Sunday.