Leveling and Items

[Moon_Goddess]

Not a proposal, just a discussion as I have no clue what to propose.

I'm noticing a problem with the way 4e handles items and the way L4W leveling works.

The basic assumtion with 4e is 5 players in a group, and an adventure lasting 1 level is supposed to have 10 treasure parcels. 5 of those parcels are magic items and 5 are money, so we can reasonable assume that each character will have a magic item by the time they hit level 2.


The problem is with our open party system and bonus time xp we can't count on when someone will get an item or when someone will level.

My adventure I ran I orginally intended it to give 5000 xp, enough for 5 characters to level, I didn't include time xp into the calculation becuase I had no way of knowing what the time would be. Since I intended the adventure to level 5 characters I included 10 treasure parcels. However they players I got some already had experience, some did not, some already had items some did not.

I stoped the adventure short due to the way the plot ran down, and thus there was no reasonable chance to award all the treasure parcels, So no some of the characters will be lvl 2, some still lvl 1, some with items some with not. and who is 2 and who is not, and who has and who doesn't don't match up like they should.

Larinza has reached level 2 now, though with 2 adventures, as such the number of treasure parcels just havn't fallen her away. If I award all my dm credits to her rather than save them for my second character she's gonna be pushing close to level 3 without anything.


Let me reiterate, I'm not saying this is a problem now, but I think it's going to be a problem that expands as we go up in levels

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Good points, and ones that I've thought about before.

One small clarification is that the 10 parcels are supposed to be 4 items and 6 parcels of monetary loot for a 5-man party, meaning that one character every level doesn't get an item. Looking at it from the other direction, this means that a character should expect to get an item roughly 4 out of 5 levels, assuming that the DM rotates the "odd man out" each level (which they should).

The items, in my opinion, are easier to handle. If the characters have a decent treasure tracking section in their sheet, it should be fairly easy to look and see who has items, who doesn't, and when (meaning which level) they got their items. (Maybe we should make that a standard? Noting what your level was when you got a given magic item in adventure loot?) From there, you can award items to those who still need them.

The trickier part is the money. It's nearly impossible to hand-pick money for specific PCs, so all the coinage and other valuable non-magical treasure in the adventure is probably going to be split evenly. Since not every character joining an adventure comes with a clean slate or comparable past loot, you won't be able to even them up with money rewarded in your adventure. Which obviously isn't ideal, if we're trying to stick to the DMG guidelines.

And then there's the whole can of worms of DM credits, which is essentially loot-free XP, which throws the whole system out of whack. I'm not sure what to do about that, other than recommend that the character's future DMs try to retroactively compensate ...

Thoughts?

 

[renau1g]

The other issue is with the way the DMG/PHB handles making PC's above first level, which is give them a magic item of their level+1, their level, and level -1 (IIRC), so this flies in the face of the parcel system and grants PC's starting above level 1 (not sure when/if that'll happen) a bonus over those who start lower, plus they get to pick their items.

 

[stonegod]

The other issue is with the way the DMG/PHB handles making PC's above first level, which is give them a magic item of their level+1, their level, and level -1 (IIRC), so this flies in the face of the parcel system and grants PC's starting above level 1 (not sure when/if that'll happen) a bonus over those who start lower, plus they get to pick their items.

In the long run, such characters actually have less effective loot that those through the parcel system, though level 2/3 they have the advantage, sure.

This is something that will need to dealt with in LEB 4E as well.

 

[KenHood]

The trickier part is the money.

And then there's the issue of characters like Palindrome, who pack-rats anything he can steal. He's got a few magic items that don't do anything game-wise and would probably sell for decent GP, but he's too much of hoarding mentality to dispense with them.

That said...

I prefer to think of the parcels as guidelines, not laws. When you try to legislate everything and create a 'fair' system, you end up increasing the workload on players, DM's, and judges. Like the old saying goes, "Players that dwell on making sure everything works exactly right suffer a -5 penalty to the Will defense against attacks from hobgoblins." ("A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." -- Emerson)

I think a DM that knows the players can get around all of this and set up fair dispensations of treasure. There's a powerful human element in the game structure that can smooth out these problems in-character, through play.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

<snip>

I think a DM that knows the players can get around all of this and set up fair dispensations of treasure. There's a powerful human element in the game structure that can smooth out these problems in-character, through play.

But what is a fair dispensation of treasure? In my experience, it usually ends up as equal shares for everyone, or if only one or two got magic items they give up their share of the money and everyone else gets equal shares. Is that a fair dispensation? Or does that just propagate the "rich to become richer", so to speak?

[Edit] Also, in a setting like this I don't think we can assume that the DMs are going to know their players. Usually they won't before they start the adventure, and maybe not even by the time it ends. I think the DMs that have the same group of players for more than an adventure or two are going to be more of an exception, rather than a rule. [/edit]

FWIW, I'm not particularly concerned about money for my characters. As long as they end up with enough appropriate magic items that they're not gimped compared to what they're supposed to face, I don't care. I'm not everyone, though.

 

[renau1g]

Murphy wants to be like Scrooge McDuck and have enough gold to swim in.

As an aside, I agree with you Lord S.

 

[Atanatotatos]

I think a DM that knows the players can get around all of this and set up fair dispensations of treasure. There's a powerful human element in the game structure that can smooth out these problems in-character, through play.

Yes. All true. The point is, in a living world you're not supposed to continue adventuring with the same DM (or at least, you're not guaranteed to). So getting to know your players well might not be a given.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

I'm having a similar problem in Fire! - I wanted to hand out some small personalized bonuses during the action itself, because that's a lot more fun and makes the players feel like their specific character is more involved in the adventure, but I ended up giving more to some than others. (Because for some I just didn't have any inspiration for anything cool that connected with their character, and for others their moment to shame came at a moment when it would have been awkward to throw a reward at them due to the pacing. And some people turned around and gave the treasure I gave to them away...)

So, obviously at the end I'm going to give a flat amount of reward to everybody, but I can't really arrange it that the people who missed out on treasure during the adventure, through my own poor scheduling, get more at the end. (At least not without feeling really artificial.) In a continuing campaign I'd just mark them for a reward at a later date, but in a self contained adventure it feels a bit unfair.

 

[Moon_Goddess]

That was my point moving from DM to DM makes this a problem...

I know some of your are staying in the same party adventure after adventure, but the thing I love about living world is meeting new characters every adventure.

mainly I'm just worried about the fact that as some point the AC of monsters is going to assume that everyone has a +1 weapon and it really seems like we arn't going to assume that at the same speed as a offline campiagn does.