D&D 5E Levels 1-4 are "Training Wheels?"

[Lyxen]

When did he say people don't enjoy it? What are you doing here, man?

I'm tired with the condescension that goes with "you are not really playing the game until you are past level 5". It drips from the words being used in every post. It's sure, children can enjoy themselves playing simple games with training wheels, it's not about enjoyment. sigh

 

[Shardstone]

While having no problem telling other people how to play and making Oberoni-fallacy counterarguments...it's bizarre. Might not be worth continuing.

I'm glad I'm not the only one recognizing it. I thought I was losing my mind for a moment.

 

[Shardstone]

I'm tired with the condescension that goes with "you are not really playing the game until you are past level 5". It drips from the words being used in every post. It's sure, children can enjoy themselves playing simple games with training wheels, it's not about enjoyment. sigh

Except I never said that. I literally never said that. In fact, I've said the opposite, which is that those levels were designed to be fun and satisfactory. The real game is every level of the game, and every possible bracket of levels, be it 1-6, 10-14, 3-9, and so on. I am not being condenscending. I have told you this. You literally ignore me telling you this to keep saying I'm trying to be condenscending. Why do you keep doing this?

 

[Plaguescarred]

This logic only holds up with a gross misunderstanding of what I'm sayinig.

Its actually insane. I really don't get where this offense is coming from, and people are literally ignoring what I'm saying to just keep getting offended.

Do you agree or disagree that for people that never played high level D&D, playing L16-20 is also tranining wheel then?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Having read through a lot of the thread, I'll just say this is my current take on it all:

Levels 1 - 4 aren't training wheels, because when you get to level 5 the rules don't change. The game is the same.

IMO for them to be training wheels, you would have to change the rules, add complexity in the mechanics, etc. and 5E doesn't do that (at least not as I see it).

Levels 1 - 4 aren't even really simpler or less complex or have fewer options. Lower levels are actually front-loaded with features. Sure you gain more spells and more features as you level, but for most classes level 5 and higher you are only getting 1 feature each level.

All that isn't to say that because your PCs are less powerful in tier 1 than higher tiers, and because of that you might feel like the game is in cautious mode (?), making you feel like tier 2 and above is more complex/advanced/I don't know...

Maybe a good analogy would be bicycle, scooter, motorcycle, racing motorcycle to tiers 1 - 4. The rules are the same, but how far you go, how quickly you get there, etc. makes it all feel different? (FWIW, I can't even ride a bike, so I could be WAY OFF on this LOL!)

 

[Shardstone]

Having read through a lot of the thread, I'll just say this is my current take on it all:

Levels 1 - 4 aren't training wheels, because when you get to level 5 the rules don't change. The game is the same.

IMO for them to be training wheels, you would have to change the rules, add complexity in the mechanics, etc. and 5E doesn't do that (at least not as I see it).

Levels 1 - 4 aren't even really simpler or less complex or have fewer options. Lower levels are actually front-loaded with features. Sure you gain more spells and more features as you level, but for most classes level 5 and higher you are only getting 1 feature each level.

All that isn't to say that because your PCs are less powerful in tier 1 than higher tiers, and because of that you might feel like the game is in cautious mode (?), making you feel like tier 2 and above is more complex/advanced/I don't know...

Maybe a good analogy would be bicycle, scooter, motorcycle, racing motorcycle to tiers 1 - 4. The rules are the same, but how far you go, how quickly you get there, etc. makes it all feel different? (FWIW, I can't even ride a bike, so I could be WAY OFF on this LOL!)

I agree. The term training wheels clearly has a lot of baggage for people. But your analogy of bike into racing bike is very strong, I think. In other words, as I said earlier, these levels are the "let's get started" levels or "getting started" levels. You're literally getting started with D&D, and they're trying to make it painless for new players and exciting for old players. A tough thing to do, yet they've done it!

 

[Shardstone]

Do you agree or disagree that for people that never played high level D&D, playing L16-20 is also tranining wheel then?

No, because your argument here is nonsensical when given the arguments I've posited.

Those levels have a LOT of upfront and overloaded stuff coming at you for new players of the game. IT would be very difficult for them to jump into, as opposed to early game D&D. Therefore, early game D&D are the "getting started" levels, and this is by design, literally proven by me posting what Mearls said earlier.

I will not be responding to anyone else using the word training wheels with me. I already ditched this terminology, but kept referencing it for ease of conversation, but it seems some of you literally cannot see past your own baggage to get to the rest of my point. So, I'm dropping this term.

 

[Lyxen]

Except I never said that. I literally never said that. In fact, I've said the opposite, which is that those levels were designed to be fun and satisfactory. The real game is every level of the game, and every possible bracket of levels, be it 1-6, 10-14, 3-9, and so on. I am not being condenscending. I have told you this. You literally ignore me telling you this to keep saying I'm trying to be condenscending. Why do you keep doing this?

Because when it's not "training wheels", it's "noobs", or "There is really no valid argument for otherwise"... Do you realise how condescending that sounds ?

Look, no-one (I think) disputes the facts that:

• Level 1 is supposed not to be too complex.
• Complexity rises throughout the whole game.

But that is all that there is to it. For CHARACTERS, there are tiers of play, about the usual influence that they can have over the setting.

But because this is all that there is to it, everything else like assuming that a range of level is more "beginner friendly" than another as well as naming that is purely yours. I'm just telling you that it's not the case by design of the game (the tweets speak about level 1 only), and that the condescension that you show about naming these ranges (which, once more, exist only for you) is not acceptable.

 

[Shardstone]

Because when it's not "training wheels", it's "noobs", or "There is really no valid argument for otherwise"... Do you realise how condescending that sounds ?

Look, no-one (I think) disputes the facts that:

• Level 1 is supposed not to be too complex.
• Complexity rises throughout the whole game.

But that is all that there is to it. For CHARACTERS, there are tiers of play, about the usual influence that they can have over the setting.

But because this is all that there is to it, everything else like assuming that a range of level is more "beginner friendly" than another as well as naming that is purely yours. I'm just telling you that it's not the case by design of the game (the tweets speak about level 1 only), and that the condescension that you show about naming these ranges (which, once more, exist only for you) is not acceptable.

The only person condescending here is you. You have been incredibly aggressive towards me despite every attempt I've made to tell you that is not my intent. I have went to great lengths to explain my thought process so that you wouldn't receive negative intent.

Quite frankly, you're someone who only cares about their pride, and you aren't interested in conversing with me. You only want to converse with the made of version of me in your head. I will not be responding to you again. You have only derailed this thread, and prevented me from moving on with my points with other people.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Levels 1 - 4 aren't even really simpler or less complex or have fewer options. Lower levels are actually front-loaded with features. Sure you gain more spells and more features as you level, but for most classes level 5 and higher you are only getting 1 feature each level.

This comparison fails to account that L5 gain 1 feature yes, but that adds on top of features gained at L1-4 so whenever you gain a level after 1st, you do gain more options. And the more options you get, the more complex things become.