D&D 5E Levels of literary heroes (and inflation thereof)

[Sacrosanct]

Spawned by the Conan thread, I noticed that when we as gamers like to come up with D&D equivalent stats for literary heroes, we put them at a much higher level than what they've actually accomplished in the book. Some people automatically put them at max level builds. I didn't want to totally hijack that thread, but wanted a separate discussion about the various types of heroes and what levels they would probably be in D&D land based on what they actually accomplished.

As I said in the other thread, a 4th level PC used to be called a "hero", and to put it into context, a 4th level PC in 5e can go toe to toe with a brown bear. That seems pretty heroic to me, once you toss aside our subconscious influences of 4th level being a low level because there are 20 levels of play.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but here are my thoughts on some of the most famous:

Aragorn: an Urak hai was the toughest opponent. In 5e that's the equivalent to an Orc Eye of Gruumsh. CR 2. Worgs were a challenge, and are CR 1/2. He's definitely at least 5th level for the extra attack, but not sure how much higher he'd be than that. I'd probably go with a horde breaker ranger. This is true for the rest of the party as well. I suppose one could make the argument that he and Legolas are 11th level for the volley and whirlwind abilities, but there's no evidence that places them any higher than that. Dragon #5 had an article that had Gandalf at no higher than level 5, and Sauramon no higher than level 12 (in OD&D terms). I'll past that article below if you're curious

Conan: It's been many years, and I haven't read all the stories, but by my recollection, the toughest monsters he faced were a stegosaurus (CR 5, same as triceratops) that he couldn't even beat, but had to use poison. A huge ape (between the size of a regular ape and 5e's giant ape, so CR 4ish). He killed two frost giant brothers, but they weren't the 21' tall 5e versions. The best comparison I could find was that they were about the size of ogres. Atali (the frost giant woman) was about the size of Conan. That puts him at level 7-10ish, depending what sort of multi-classing you want to do.

Chronicles of Prydain series (Taran Wanderer): started at level 1, but were only level 5ish by the time the series ended. Taran as a fighter, Eilonwy as a sorcerer, and Fflewddur Fflam as a valor bard.

What others?

 

[delericho]

Yep.

And equally troubling, IMO, is the stat inflation that goes with those characters, too - they're inevitably presented as being the very best of the best of the best, even if part of the concept for the character is that they're the everyman hero.

It's especially noticable with licensed RPGs, of course - I submit that if Luke Skywalker, as he is at the start of Star Wars, isn't buildable as a rules-legal starting character, then there's something wrong with your Star Wars RPG.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yep.

And equally troubling, IMO, is the stat inflation that goes with those characters, too - they're inevitably presented as being the very best of the best of the best, even if part of the concept for the character is that they're the everyman hero.

It's especially noticable with licensed RPGs, of course - I submit that if Luke Skywalker, as he is at the start of Star Wars, isn't buildable as a rules-legal starting character, then there's something wrong with your Star Wars RPG.

Speaking of Star Wars, I read something a while back that had them also around level 5 or so.

Luke's D&D stats (non force enhanced): Str: 10, Int: 14, Wis: 9, Dex: 16, Con: 11, Cha: 8. Of course, Wis and Cha increased by the end of Jedi.

 

[GameOgre]

Well Conan was in a LOT of stories. A LOT of them. He at least made it to name level and became a King even if you discount the Gods he slew as not really being Gods in the D&D version of them. Just on the sheer amount of enemies he slew he reached name level if you use Basic D&D as a guideline. If you use 5E he would be 20th easy. Really Conan is in a LOT of literature!

 

[delericho]

Luke's D&D stats (non force enhanced): Str: 10, Int: 14, Wis: 9, Dex: 16, Con: 11, Cha: 8. Of course, Wis and Cha increased by the end of Jedi.

SWSE places him at 11th level at the end of Jedi, and gives him Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, and Cha 15. Allowing for stat bumps (2 each at 4th and 8th level), that makes him a minimum of 35-point-buy. SWSE recommends 25 points for PCs.

(I suspect the other two WotC versions gave him the same stats, but I don't have my copies to hand.)

 

[Yaarel]

An objective way to assign levels depends on the size of the population that the hero comes from.

Statistically, a population the size of a million persons - during the Medieval Age, a big city or a small nation - is likely to only produce a handful of L10 heroes. Higher level heroes are highly unlikely.

An example is Beowulf, the hero (the most powerful representative) of a small nation, who is plausibly somewhere around L10.

 

[Sacrosanct]

SWSE places him at 11th level at the end of Jedi, and gives him Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, and Cha 15. Allowing for stat bumps (2 each at 4th and 8th level), that makes him a minimum of 35-point-buy. SWSE recommends 25 points for PCs.

(I suspect the other two WotC versions gave him the same stats, but I don't have my copies to hand.)

I don't care what those writers put him as through the same inflated assumptions I'm talking about here, Luke will never have a CHA higher than 8 in my opinion (all that God-awful whining all the time), and there's no evidence that he was ever stronger than an average person. In fact, is there anyone that had a positive CHA reaction to him when he wasn't forcing them by using the force, or wasn't already a fanboi of him?

 

[Mephista]

Personally, I would put Aragorn as an Ancient Paladin with a background that got him those wilderness skills. We don't need a Ranger chasis for the wilderness skills, and the holy sword, "hands are a healer" bits reflect the paladin more than they do the Ranger. But that aside... the sheer scope of healings that Aragorn performed is a pretty big hint that he's not just a low level character.

As for that article on Gandalf... Talk about prejudice. Sure, all those spells could have been lower level. But look at the high level spells, especially the evocations. Chain Lightning. Delayed Blast Fireball. Project Image. Sure, Gandalf didnt' cast Meteor. But lots of high level spells are simply improved versions of lower level ones. The man solo'd a Balrog, and cast tons of spells while doing it. He also had a sword-and-staff combination, implying he was a Bladesinger, which hints he could have been using spell slots to absorb damage in D&D terms. He used Dominate Person on Saruman as well, assuming that he didn't need Dominate Monster (angel-in-flesh and all). Fireballs and lightning bolts are iconic spells. Just because a character primarily uses those does not mean that we're dealign with a level 5 wizard. And the man DID solo a Balor. That alone should hint at a higher level. Gandalf was often offscreen, and we never got a good look at his full powers. The books went out of their way to prevent him from going all out.

Conan in the novels might have had trouble with a dinosaur, but the Conan in the cartoon dealt with a snake god and demons. So, I'm going to have to ask which Conan we're modeling here. Because there's more than one.

Sometimes abilities are exaggerated. Othertimes? We can't ignore the abilities that hint at the higher levels either.

 

[Yaarel]

I don't care what those writers put him as through the same inflated assumptions I'm talking about here, Luke will never have a CHA higher than 8 in my opinion (all that God-awful whining all the time), and there's no evidence that he was ever stronger than an average person. In fact, is there anyone that had a positive CHA reaction to him when he wasn't forcing them by using the force, or wasn't already a fanboi of him?

The fankids of Luke Skywalker are - in themselves - evidence of his high Charisma.

Indeed, even a hater who takes a peculiar dislike to some pop icon is - in itself - evidence of the icons high Charisma.

 

[Sacrosanct]

The fankids of Luke Skywalker are - in themselves - evidence of his high Charisma.

Indeed, even a hater who takes a peculiar dislike to some pop icon is - in itself - evidence of the icons high Charisma.

Not necessarily, because they are fans without ever having interacted with or seem him. They are fans of his station/stature, not him. Which is different than Charisma. Think about everyone he actually met, which is Charisma. His aunt and uncle don't like his whining. Obi Wan had a negative initial reaction. Han and Chewy and Leah all had a negative impression. Yoda had a negative reaction. Pretty much everyone who met him who he didn't use the force on had a negative initial reaction.