D&D 5E Levels of literary heroes (and inflation thereof)

[Yaarel]

Not necessarily, because they are fans without ever having interacted with or seem him. They are fans of his station/stature, not him. Which is different than Charisma. Think about everyone he actually met, which is Charisma. His aunt and uncle don't like his whining. Obi Wan had a negative initial reaction. Han and Chewy and Leah all had a negative impression. Yoda had a negative reaction. Pretty much everyone who met him who he didn't use the force on had a negative initial reaction.

By high Charisma, Luke won them all over. Even Han Solo the ‘Rogue’. They all esteem him highly.

Luke Skywalker (by design for his safety) grew up with an aunt and uncle who were small minds in a small town. They didnt like what he was whining about, a larger life of adventure. They found his ideas threatening to their worldview and way of life.

Luke Skywalker begins the Saga as an archetypal youth, seeking to be a knight. The ‘adults’ respond negatively to his ‘youthful’ excesses.

Obi-Wan and Yoda are mentors, who intentionally teach the value of humility in their student. They only chose a worthy student.

It seems to me, even the Force responds to high Charisma - the larger-than-life individuals who are destined by fate. Proficiency with the Force is itself evidence of Charisma.

Possibly, the Force also responds to high Wisdom with regard to divination, or rather prescience.

 

[Li Shenron]

I noticed that when we as gamers like to come up with D&D equivalent stats for literary heroes, we put them at a much higher level than what they've actually accomplished in the book. Some people automatically put them at max level builds.

In my opinion the reason could be that we cannot tolerate the idea that a major literary character of a book/movie loved by millions could be killed by the PC played by a totally unknown kid. Even if that obviously wouldn't actually affect the book/movie at all.

 

[Celtavian]

Coming up with D&D stats and comparable world stats is difficult because the worlds are so different.

In Lord of the Rings Aragorn had to worry about orcs, even though he was considered one of the high race of Numenoreans and the best of them. His was the lineage of kings mixed with elf blood. He was eighty years old and the most accomplished man of his age in nearly every way. He was destined be king and rebuild the greatest kingdom of men ever known. In the Tolkien world, he would be one of the highest level characters with extraordinary physical and mental statistics far exceeding the average man. Though it should be noted he wasn't as strong as Boromir.

Gandalf was an angelic being robed in the flesh of a man. His race would not be available for PCs unless it was a special case. He was able to lift up a bier with a man on it with one arm in the books. Yet he too had to fear a large number of orcs and was not invincible. Yet if you made an equivalent character in previous editions of D&D, he might kill an orc army alone.

Conan was also one of the most extraordinary humans of his age. He was built to be a nearly invincible fighting man extraordinary in every way.

The problem is not the characters themselves, it's the D&D system. D&D wasn't built to be realistic in nearly any way. It also doesn't mirror fiction very well. 5E is perhaps the closest edition to being able to design adventures that somewhat simulate fiction, but even 5E misses the mark, just not as wide as previous editions where high level D&D characters were more like superheroes than fictional fantasy heroes.

But if you wanted characters like Aragorn, Gandalf, and Conan to be the equivalent to what they are in their own worlds, their abilities would be off the charts, likely unobtainable by PCs using the standard statistical generation method. They had no weaknesses and were considered some of the greatest people of their time.

 

[spectacle]

By high Charisma, Luke won them all over. Even Han Solo the ‘Rogue’. They all esteem him highly.

No, he won them over by his deeds, not by charm.

 

[Yaarel]

Luke comes across as ‘likable’, and has appeal among the audience.

In my opinion the reason could be that we cannot tolerate the idea that a major literary character of a book/movie loved by millions could be killed by the PC played by a totally unknown kid. Even if that obviously wouldn't actually affect the book/movie at all.

Before assigning levels to literary heroes, it is probably more important to assign levels to the literary setting.

For example, one way of portraying Lord of the Rings is as an ‘E6’ setting. The highest level in the entire world is L6. After L6, the heroes are ‘Epic’.

Oppositely, in a Superhero setting, the lowest level for a hero might be L9 (thus Fly, Fireball, Lightning, Cone of Cold, Teleport, Phasing, Stoneskin, etcetera).

 

[Sacrosanct]

Luke comes across as ‘likable’, and has appeal among the audience.
.

Not really. He comes across like a giant whiner. It's one of the reasons there were so many responses to Hayden Christiansen like, "Now I know where Luke got it from.", and memes like this:

And as spectacle says, you're confusing charisma with deeds.

 

[Yaarel]

Not really. He comes across like a giant whiner. It's one of the reasons there were so many responses to Hayden Christiansen like, "Now I know where Luke got it from.", and memes like this:

And as spectacle says, you're confusing charisma with deeds.

The fact one has strong feelings about Luke Skywalker is, in itself, evidence of Lukes high Charisma.

 

[Sacrosanct]

The fact one has strong feelings about Luke Skywalker is, in itself, evidence of Lukes high Charisma.

Um...that's not what charisma means.

 

[Mercule]

The fact one has strong feelings about Luke Skywalker is, in itself, evidence of Lukes high Charisma.

By that logic, any drunken lech who tried to grope my daughter would have a 25 charisma.

Charisma isn't just the ability to be liked or even to move people. It's a somewhat elusive trait of being naturally able to influence people in a meaningful way. That can be positive or negative, but is generally in the way the bearer desires. Someone with a high charisma is one of the "cool kids" and they are "cool" because they are charismatic. Their status, wealth, or skills have little to do with it other than being a tool to use.

A king has status, but without charisma, people ignore him after he leaves the room (or, worse, overthrow him). Some great quarterbacks don't have a lot of respect, while some mediocre QBs are lauded largely because of charisma, not skill. Steve Jobs was a despicable human being, by most accounts, and not nearly as good with tech as Woz, but he had charisma -- even as he demeaned you, you still wanted to do what he wanted.

Yes, a high charisma can be used to make someone fear or loathe you, but if you don't like someone with a high charisma, it's probably because they want it that way -- or, at least, they wanted something else more.

 

[Yaarel]

By definition, Charisma is the ability to ‘move people’, and includes both love and dread.

Absence of Charisma means being unnoticeable.