D&D 5E Levels of literary heroes (and inflation thereof)

[S'mon]

Time for a bit of modest necromancy, after having been sent to this thread by another one.

In Tower of the Elephant, Conan defeats a lion with a single blow from his sword. He also jumps very high, and is extremely stealthy.

The single-blow kill is hard to emulate in D&D, but these all suggest STR and DEX towards the upper end of the range.

He also befriends Yogay, and at least makes an impression on Taurus. This doesn't suggest a low CHA. And the sharpness of his senses belies a low WIS.

If I had to nominate a dump-stat for Tower of the Elephant Conan it would be INT.

The DEX, CHA and WIS of this "Conan" all seem to low to me - he won't notice silent lions trying to surprise him; won't be able to make friends with Yogah (or, more generally, have every woman he meets swoon into his arms); and probably isn't one of the stealthiest people around either.

I think Conan is very hard to build within the constraints for PCs because he is superb in respect of STR, DEX and CON. Given that a 5e CR 2bandit captain has STR 15, DEX 16 and CON 14, we can say that Conan has to be at least 16 to 18 in each of these physical stats. But he is also no slouch in WIS (amazing sense) and CHA (he can Intimidate, impress, woo, lead soldiers, and in general makes a tremendous impression on whomever he meets).

The Bandit Captain may have lightning-fast reflexes, but he doesn't get to roll two d20 for init and take the best one...

As far as 5e stats go, I definitely think you can create a Conanesque PC with standard point buy if you want. The d20 modifiers don't matter that much compared to class abilities and feats. A 5e 3rd level Barbarian can certainly kill a lion, though in the stories Conan kills lots of foes 'with one blow' that would be a couple round fights in D&D - Howard wasn't much for extended fight scenes. D&D 5e plays closer to movie-Conan (indeed the Barbarian PC Hakeem in my online game is 'played by' Jason Momoa as Conan & Khal Drogo).

If I wanted to play a Conanesque PC I'd probably be spreading stat points around to emphasise broad competence over specialistion - 14s and 12s rather than 16s and 8s, though I'd keep a 16 STR as you roll your prime attack stat so frequently. At 1st level he'd be 'baby Conan', but 5e lets me grow into the role with stat bumps.

Attributes in 5e have marginally more simulationist value than in 4e, but it's still pretty weak in
any 'd20 system' iteration of D&D; the effective difference between a 12 and a 16 on stat checks
is +2 on a d20, the variance in the roll tends to dominate the attribute bonus.

 

[S'mon]

I guess I'd want my 'starter Conan' to have something like ST 16 DE 14 CON 14 IN 10 WI 10 CH 12 - I've not added the points.
DE 14 is sub-optimal in 5e I think for Barbarian class, & I could play the character fine with DE 12 or 13.

My actual level 3 5e Barbarian Vulgreth's stat array is ST 16 DE 10 CO 16 IN 10 WI 8 CH 13, to make him more Conanesque I'd lower CON and raise DEX.

 

[GameOgre]

It really doesn't matter what their stats are. Every one of these characters had one thing going for him that isn't on their character sheet.

They are PC's in a Story DM's Dream Game.

I can kill Gods and take on entire armies as a fighter with a eight strength and nine hit points total if the DM is living out his fantasy Dreams with me as the hero of the tale.

RPG's just don't work very well to tell stories unless the DM just wants them to and everyone is willing to cheat.

In reality of THE GAME, Conan died at 1st level because the dice gods are fickle and he did not have a healer. Elric did much better because he he was dating the DM and got a Artifact weapon before the game started.

Shrug Dice do not care what your destiny is....the roll 1's just as often as 20's.

 

[Tony Vargas]

In Tower of the Elephant, Conan defeats a lion with a single blow from his sword. He also jumps very high, and is extremely stealthy.

The single-blow kill is hard to emulate in D&D,

Men yawn at that comment.

but these all suggest STR and DEX towards the upper end of the range.

He also befriends Yogay, and at least makes an impression on Taurus. This doesn't suggest a low CHA. And the sharpness of his senses belies a low WIS.

If I had to nominate a dump-stat for Tower of the Elephant Conan it would be INT.

He also went on to become a great general, which hardly implied dumped INT.

Yeah, heroes in the fantasy genre (especially those not using overt magic like spellcasting or loaded down with a McGuffin artifact) tend to be paragons who are pretty good to awesome across the board. In myth/legend and exaggerated history, there was often an assumption of nobility implying that sort of broad range of ability/talent/accomplishment.

Part of it is needing to divide the splotlight time up among a whole party. Part of it, perhaps, is a nerdly desire to take such strong-jawed heroes down a few pegs.

 

[pemerton]

RPG's just don't work very well to tell stories unless the DM just wants them to and everyone is willing to cheat.

What RPGs have you played?

There are plenty of RPGs that will support a story-like sequence of events without the GM or the players cheating, and without the GM having to drive everything. FATE is probably the best known, but not the only one. In D&D, 4e leans pretty far this way too.

The main mechanic that is needed is one which lets players make their own luck, so they can choose when to go all out and when not too. This can be via "fate points" or something similar, or in 4e by choosing when to spend action points, encounter/daily powers, etc.

 

[pemerton]

Men yawn at that comment.

I didn't meant to be that boring!

Is there an allusion here that I'm missing?

On the great general/dumped INT issue - I think INT 12 is enough for this. There are no mechanics of generalship in D&D (other than perhaps 4e) which really require high INT.

I think [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION]'s comments about using feats and class abilities to achieve strong outcomes without strong stats is a good one. Just as (per the current INT 5 thread) a character's cognitive ability is not determined just by INT but also by languages known, various trainings, etc; so a character's "panther-like reflexes" depend not just on DEX but on other abilities to gain advantage on initiative etc.

That tends to suggest that, over the trajectory of D&D, stats have become significantly less important in providing an overall summary picture of the character and his/her capabilities.

 

[S'mon]

On the great general/dumped INT issue - I think INT 12 is enough for this. There are no mechanics of generalship in D&D (other than perhaps 4e) which really require high INT.

Even IRL, Generals are rarely geniuses, and the talents of good generalship are largely orthogonal to INT. A wise general may want some high-INT advisors (staff officers, in the Prussian/modern system) but the main talent of good generalship is to make a decision, act on it, get others to act on it, and stick to it - knowing when to change tack can be valuable in extremis, but indecision is generally a lot more dangerous than over-decisiveness.

I guess in 5e D&D understanding people (Insight skill) and decent/good Charisma are likely to be the main ones, but traditionally leadership was defined simply by being a high level Fighter.

 

[S'mon]

On the great general/dumped INT issue - I think INT 12 is enough for this. There are no mechanics of generalship in D&D (other than perhaps 4e) which really require high INT.

Even IRL, Generals are rarely geniuses, and the talents of good generalship are largely orthogonal to INT. A wise general may want some high-INT advisors (staff officers, in the Prussian/modern system) but the main talent of good generalship is to make a decision, act on it, get others to act on it, and stick to it - knowing when to change tack can be valuable in extremis, but indecision is generally a lot more dangerous than over-decisiveness.

I guess in 5e D&D understanding people (Insight skill) and decent/good Charisma are likely to be the main ones, but traditionally leadership was defined simply by being a high level Fighter.

 

[delericho]

Part of it, perhaps, is a nerdly desire to take such strong-jawed heroes down a few pegs.

Possibly.

Part of it is also a reaction against the excessive reverence paid to these characters. Maybe not so much Conan, but some of the EU material written about Han Solo is absurd - the character was much more interesting when he was 'just' a smuggler, without being a former Imperial Academy graduate, top of his class, and the best general in the galaxy. (But, perhaps more to the point, there seems a determination that because a fictional character pulls off a trick once that character therefore must have some special ability to do it all the time.)

And part of it is about the set-up of the game. If we're playing Star Wars then Han, Luke, and Leia really need to be suitable PCs (subject to playing at the appropriate level). If they're not, as is the case in SWSE, then there's something not right about the game. (And, as I said earlier in the thread, although D&D isn't "The Conan RPG", Gygax does note that he, Elric, Fafhrd, and the Grey Mouser were especially strong influences on the game. IMO, they too should be suitable for PC use.)

 

[pemerton]

although D&D isn't "The Conan RPG", Gygax does note that he, Elric, Fafhrd, and the Grey Mouser were especially strong influences on the game. IMO, they too should be suitable for PC use.

I don't know Elric or the Leiber characters, but if you read REH's Conan you can see that he is extremely strong compared to an ordinary person.

He is the strongest person who appears in the stories. He is incredibly quick. He has near-preternatural senses. He survives crucifixion.

In D&D terms he is both a superior fighter and a superior rogue. And because D&D separates PC building into both stats and class abilities, it is hard to build him just using class features while keeping his stats at PC levels, because this makes his stats (and those parts of the game that rely on stat checks) look wrong.

I think there are game systems in which one might build a reasonable representation of Conan (eg I could see it being done in a fantasy version of Marvel Heroic RP; and probably in HeroWars/Quest). But D&D makes it harder, I think.