D&D 5E (2014) Levels of literary heroes (and inflation thereof)

[MostlyDm]

I've seen people make pretty spot-on Gandalf clones using Bard, actually. No music, using some sort of oratory or speech craft in place of traditional music.

They get a smattering of arcane and divine sourced spells, they know how to use a blade, they have a strong presence, and they are quite adept at guiding and leading and even manipulating men.

Felt pretty... Authentic, I suppose the word would be. Very evocative of the Gandalf archetype. At any level past about 5.

 

[rgoodbb]

Yeah you could spell-steal Find Shadowfax, Counterspell, Remove Curse and Daylight or replace one of them with Shillelagh and wouldn't be far off at all.

 

[S'mon]

I've seen people make pretty spot-on Gandalf clones using Bard, actually. No music, using some sort of oratory or speech craft in place of traditional music.

They get a smattering of arcane and divine sourced spells, they know how to use a blade, they have a strong presence, and they are quite adept at guiding and leading and even manipulating men.

Felt pretty... Authentic, I suppose the word would be. Very evocative of the Gandalf archetype. At any level past about 5.

5e Bard is awesome and is now my go-to class for statting 'literary' wizard NPCs in my
games. It does everything you see 'wizards' do in high fantasy stories. In particular the knowledge, the healing, the general competence. Very unlike traditional D&D Magic-User. In-world they are more likely called 'Sorcerer' 'Loremaster' or 'Wizard' than 'Bard', though.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I wouldn't try to stat out a Gandalf PC anymore than I'd try to stat out a Balrog PC or a Samug PC. To me he fits best as a Deva with monster spellcasting or with some class levels added to him.

I stated a PC-playable pregen Gandalf clone ('Vancegulf Mythreindeer') for a con game a couple years ago, under AD&D, 3.5, and 4e rules. In all three cases he was "5th level." In 1e, he was a 'human' character-with-two-classes Magic-user 5 (and former Fighter 9) and a psionic (and he could have theoretically handled the balor is psionic combat). In 3.5 he was a 5th level Wizard, Half-Celestial. In 4e he was a Wizard 5, Deva.

5e Bard is awesome and is now my go-to class for statting 'literary' wizard NPCs in my
games. It does everything you see 'wizards' do in high fantasy stories. In particular the knowledge, the healing, the general competence. Very unlike traditional D&D Magic-User.

I noticed that back in 3.x: I had a 'sage' concept that I implemented as a Bard, and it ended up looking very much like a genre wizard.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I stated a PC-playable pregen Gandalf clone ('Vancegulf Mythreindeer') for a con game a couple years ago, under AD&D, 3.5, and 4e rules. In all three cases he was "5th level." In 1e, he was a 'human' character-with-two-classes Magic-user 5 (and former Fighter 9) and a psionic (and he could have theoretically handled the balor is psionic combat). In 3.5 he was a 5th level Wizard, Half-Celestial. In 4e he was a Wizard 5, Deva.

I noticed that back in 3.x: I had a 'sage' concept that I implemented as a Bard, and it ended up looking very much like a genre wizard.

LOL. Mythreindeer. That's a good one.

This thread has got me thinking... since our LOTR heroes generally fought large amounts of Orcs, and Men, and since bounded accuracy makes large amounts of monsters more dangerous to PCs, would we stat the heroes higher in this edition than in previous ones?

Just thinking about Helm's Deep, Legolas and Gimli rack up 40+ kills each and presumably Aragorn and Eomer, described as always in the think of the fighting, had even more. And while they may have had a couple of short rests, I don't think they had a long rest until afterwards. That's one heck of an adventuring day.

 

[Tony Vargas]

This thread has got me thinking... since our LOTR heroes generally fought large amounts of Orcs, and Men, and since bounded accuracy makes large amounts of monsters more dangerous to PCs, would we stat the heroes higher in this edition than in previous ones?

There's a little inconsistency in LotR - or a little too much inherent consistency in games where the players know the stats - in that sometimes the heroes are running scared from a horde of orcs and others they're plowing through 'em like they're nothing. Not helpful, I know.

Just thinking about Helm's Deep, Legolas and Gimli rack up 40+ kills each and presumably Aragorn and Eomer, described as always in the think of the fighting, had even more. And while they may have had a couple of short rests, I don't think they had a long rest until afterwards. That's one heck of an adventuring day.

Racking up kills like that in 5e'd be no problem. If you could live that long. They are in the middle of battles, so it just might be that they're not getting targeted by the hail of white-room arrows we sometimes get around here (as when 100 peasant-archers slay a Hypothetical Dragon). There's a horde of orcs, but its collective horde of attacks is spread out a lot - at worst, you might have to survive attacks from the 6 or 8 orcs who manage to completely surround you on some rounds.

 

[Zardnaar]

If anyone out there has read Raymond Fiest, how do you think his Pug character would level out?

Level 17 or 18 by the end of the Magician (18 AD&D, 17 3.0+), by some of the later books into the epic levels (20+).

In Star Wars Saga Edition
Luke Skywalker one of the other d20 books had him as level 2 at the start of ANH. He levelled up on the trip to Alderaan taking iis 1st level in the Jedi class. He would have leveled up again after rescuing the princess on the Death Star and probably again at the end so he was around level 5 at the end of ANH.

3 years pass and he has probably hit level 9 or 10 or so at the start of ESB. He goes and sees Yoda, levels up and takes his 1st level in the Jedi Knight class. He rushes off and gets pwned by Vader and probably gets some story xp and levels up again.

At the start of RotJ he is level 11 and is a Jedi just like his father (he is a Jedi Knight now). He might have gained a level after rescuing Han and then goes off to Endor and likely leveled up at the end of RotC completing his 1st destiny (redeeming Vader). Sometime in the EU timeframe he takes a level in Jedi master, completes another destiny destinies (education) and becomes a grand master sometime after the Vong invasion (hitting level 20).

 

[MostlyDm]

There's a little inconsistency in LotR - or a little too much inherent consistency in games where the players know the stats - in that sometimes the heroes are running scared from a horde of orcs and others they're plowing through 'em like they're nothing. Not helpful, I know.

Racking up kills like that in 5e'd be no problem. If you could live that long. They are in the middle of battles, so it just might be that they're not getting targeted by the hail of white-room arrows we sometimes get around here (as when 100 peasant-archers slay a Hypothetical Dragon). There's a horde of orcs, but its collective horde of attacks is spread out a lot - at worst, you might have to survive attacks from the 6 or 8 orcs who manage to completely surround you on some rounds.

I think this is it exactly. It also accounts for the inconsistency you mention; generally when they are running from the hordes, they have less support. At Helm's Deep there is an army (albeit a outnumbered one) to absorb some of the attention, and spread the attacks around. That lets the heroes wade in and wreck orcs with impunity.

 

[pemerton]

Time for a bit of modest necromancy, after having been sent to this thread by another one.

He's immensely strong and tough and agile at the start of his career, but he wasn't also hugely smart and wise and charismatic at that same point.

<snip>

Obviously, D&D isn't "the Conan RPG", but it does have something of the same sort of expectation, in the form of 1st Ed's Appendix N (Appendix D in 5e) - it's very heavily influenced by Conan, and Elric, and Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, and Drizzt. So, again, it's not unreasonable that PCs should be able to match those guys, eventually.

In 5e, and for Conan as we first see him, I would suggest a 1st level Human Barbarian with the Criminal (Burglar) background and Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 12. I'm not terribly happy with that, as the Str in particular should be higher

Seems reasonable, if a 16 is 'mighty-thewed' and most humans don't have a stat over 13.
If typical enemies resemble the 5e MM Guard, Bandit or Cultist with a combat stat of 12-13 (+1), then this looks pretty spot-on.

I would probably put 'Tower of the Elephant' Conan at 3rd level, though.

In Tower of the Elephant, Conan defeats a lion with a single blow from his sword. He also jumps very high, and is extremely stealthy.

The single-blow kill is hard to emulate in D&D, but these all suggest STR and DEX towards the upper end of the range.

He also befriends Yogay, and at least makes an impression on Taurus. This doesn't suggest a low CHA. And the sharpness of his senses belies a low WIS.

If I had to nominate a dump-stat for Tower of the Elephant Conan it would be INT.

trying to guess Conans level based on how many giants he has killed is pointless. What you need to do, IMHO, to try and figure out what level a converted character would be is to contrast them and what they can do and how people see/react to them and hearing their name. Compair that to your everyday commoner, guardsman, street thug, and innkeeper. That's where you would get a good feeling for "class and level", IMHO.

For example, there is nothing wrong with stating up Conan as "Str 18, Con 17, Dex 14, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 8; Fighter 6th; AC 12; HP 70"...if your common guardsman is "No above average stat; 0-level guard; AC 12; HP 5". Conan will wipe the floor with these guards. An innkeeper? Hell, Conan could grab said innkeep by the throat, pick him up off the ground and strangle the life out of him in 6 seconds flat ("Innkeep; AC 9; HP 2"). This same Conan could kill giants..."Frost Giants; Resistance to cold; Vulernable to heat; Str 20; AC 10; HP 25".

The DEX, CHA and WIS of this "Conan" all seem to low to me - he won't notice silent lions trying to surprise him; won't be able to make friends with Yogah (or, more generally, have every woman he meets swoon into his arms); and probably isn't one of the stealthiest people around either.

I think Conan is very hard to build within the constraints for PCs because he is superb in respect of STR, DEX and CON. Given that a 5e CR 2bandit captain has STR 15, DEX 16 and CON 14, we can say that Conan has to be at least 16 to 18 in each of these physical stats. But he is also no slouch in WIS (amazing sense) and CHA (he can Intimidate, impress, woo, lead soldiers, and in general makes a tremendous impression on whomever he meets). INT is the closest thing to a dump stat (at least until we get to The Phoenix on the Sword and The Hour of the Dragon - and even then it's probably not above 12, or "Very Intelligent" in the old AD&D scale).

I would therefore conjecture STR 18 to 20, CON 18, DEX 16+, INT 8 to 12 depending on story, WIS 14 to 16, CHA 14+.

The Star Wars characters are not such paragons of human excellence, and should be easier to achieve within normal PC stat ranges. Likewise I think for many of the LotR characters.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Well, seeing as I was quoted in this minor-necro...

The DEX, CHA and WIS of this "Conan" all seem to low to me - he won't notice silent lions trying to surprise him; won't be able to make friends with Yogah (or, more generally, have every woman he meets swoon into his arms); and probably isn't one of the stealthiest people around either.

d20, baby...d20. Having "only" +0 to +2 for Perception, Persuasion, etc is fairly minor compared to the +1 to +20 you get from rolling your d20. If the lions rolled low on their stealth, chances are he notices. If they roll high, he can still notice. Women swoon into his arms? Have you see his bod? What woman wouldn't want to get down with that hunk of man-meat! And all that is purly looking at only game mechanics. He doesn't need "high stats" to do all this...all he needs is a competent player, reasonable DM, and a campaign based on roleplaying over rollplaying.

I think Conan is very hard to build within the constraints for PCs because he is superb in respect of STR, DEX and CON. Given that a 5e CR 2bandit captain has STR 15, DEX 16 and CON 14, we can say that Conan has to be at least 16 to 18 in each of these physical stats. But he is also no slouch in WIS (amazing sense) and CHA (he can Intimidate, impress, woo, lead soldiers, and in general makes a tremendous impression on whomever he meets). INT is the closest thing to a dump stat (at least until we get to The Phoenix on the Sword and The Hour of the Dragon - and even then it's probably not above 12, or "Very Intelligent" in the old AD&D scale).

I would therefore conjecture STR 18 to 20, CON 18, DEX 16+, INT 8 to 12 depending on story, WIS 14 to 16, CHA 14+.

The Star Wars characters are not such paragons of human excellence, and should be easier to achieve within normal PC stat ranges. Likewise I think for many of the LotR characters.

I can see where you are coming from, but I believe I pointed out earlier (I think it was this thread...or at least another similar "PC's are Heroe's!" type one)...stats are stats. How a character comes off is largely...I'd say mostly, in my games at least...based on what the player decides for his character and how he role-plays him. There are multiple movies (in particular, Disney) that feature "epic hero-stated" characters that are most definitely not 'epic heroes' ("Gaston" from Beauty and the Beast cartoon comes to mind for some reason).

Also, what I think so many folks miss, is that an RPG character is not a literary character. An RPG character is MUCH more "human" in effect...because it's a game based on players (actors) deciding one thing and then the DM (producer/writer/director) deciding the chances of those things and then tossing in randomization to the point where even he/she doesn't know the outcome. All the movies, books, stories, etc that we see and read...those are the "outcomes" of those randomization. When enough of these coalesce into a 'story', we can make inferences into what/how the character "is"...and we can be completely wrong. I played a 2e Bard back in the late 90's. He had REALLY good stats overall. He was also one of the most unlucky characters I have ever played! Couldn't roll over a 5 on d20 if his life depended on it (which it did...ultimately resulting in his death). Great Charisma...which got him into more trouble than I can remember. He was smart, wise, nimble and healthy. No stat was low, most hovered in the 14 to 17 range (his low stat, iirc, was something like a 12 Strength). Yet, if his story was to be told, most folks would be hard pressed to have any of his stats higher than 12.

So, bottom line, I can see why a lot of people want to give story/movie heroes "high stats", but they are not needed nine times out of ten. The writer of the stories aren't going to have Conan fail feats of strength most of the time...because he's Conan. In an RPG, Conan, even with an 18 Strength, is going to fail feats of strength. In a story, the princess is going to swoon over Conan and his swarthy bulk. IN an RPG, Conan is going to repulse her and get himself thrown out of the city because he rolled a 3 on his Persuasion/Diplomacy. In a Conan story, he will sniff something in the air and hear a leaf crackle thirty feet away. In an RPG, the DM will roll really well for the lions and Conan will get almost mauled to death. Ergo, taking the "stories" of characters and trying to use all the heroic million-to-one things they pull off in them, and using that as a basis for stating "Well, he must have a really high Wisdom then..." is, erm..."misconstrued"?

^_^

Paul L. Ming