D&D 5E Levels of literary heroes (and inflation thereof)

[pming]

Hiya!
[MENTION=6681963]DeanP[/MENTION] almost hit the nail on the head there... I was going to say that not all "novel/story" characters and worlds will 'work' with D&D. Some are just too different...where maybe something like "time stop", "mass dominaion" and "gate" are spells any decently accomplished wizard can do, but "teleport", "fly" and "water walking" are legendary spells that only the great and ancient sorcer-kings of old could cast. It's all about world.

That said...I also think that people are guessing levels incorrectly. I wouldn't compair against giants, dragons, demons and the like. That is not a safe bet; like I said above, we have no idea, really, how "tough" a giant is in that particular world setting. In some Conan stories, giants are just "big folk", so to speak. They wouldn't even be "real" 5e giants...so trying to guess Conans level based on how many giants he has killed is pointless. What you need to do, IMHO, to try and figure out what level a converted character would be is to contrast them and what they can do and how people see/react to them and hearing their name. Compair that to your everyday commoner, guardsman, street thug, and innkeeper. That's where you would get a good feeling for "class and level", IMHO.

For example, there is nothing wrong with stating up Conan as "Str 18, Con 17, Dex 14, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 8; Fighter 6th; AC 12; HP 70"...if your common guardsman is "No above average stat; 0-level guard; AC 12; HP 5". Conan will wipe the floor with these guards. An innkeeper? Hell, Conan could grab said innkeep by the throat, pick him up off the ground and strangle the life out of him in 6 seconds flat ("Innkeep; AC 9; HP 2"). This same Conan could kill giants..."Frost Giants; Resistance to cold; Vulernable to heat; Str 20; AC 10; HP 25".

So, as you can see, its folly, IMHO, to try and "stat up story characters" using the core, as-is 5e rules most of the time. They just will not fit well most of the time. The campaign world that that particular story takes place in is where you "power level" needs to sit...and using the most common creature as the baseline for how 'tough' something is (re: human commoners), is where you need to start.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[delericho]

But even then you don't need to make the Balrog as powerful as the Balor was in the original Monster Manual, let alone the 5E one, do you?

No, but it is the point where the article in the OP goes wrong - it argues that Gandalf was only 5th level because of some D&Disms (specifically the spells he casts), while ignoring some other key D&Disms (specifically that he defeats the Balrog/Balor solo). If you're assessing Gandalf's level in D&D terms, I don't think you can just ignore either of these - and that places him higher than 5th level.

(That said, I'm still of the opinion that the designers should set Gandalf's approximate level first, and then use that to set the respective power levels of both the spells he casts and also the monsters that he fights. But that's a slightly different discussion.)

 

[delericho]

Like I said, the way to match Conan is to run a solo campaign with a ludicrous point buy.

I'd be fine with that if the DMG had some sort of the guideline about using higher point-buy for solo games. As it is, the recommendation is that a PC for a solo game is just a PC.

Besides, I don't actually see anything in the Conan stories that indicates he shouldn't sit on a par with, say, Aragorn or Luke Skywalker, both of whom also have an array of above average stats and both whom are team-players.

I get that. What I'm saying is that for some literary characters, like Conan, that is simply an inevitable result of the way they were written. If you were to stat Conan at, say, 15/13/14/8/10/12, this would not accurately represent the character that Howard wrote.

True.

In 5e, and for Conan as we first see him, I would suggest a 1st level Human Barbarian with the Criminal (Burglar) background and Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 12. I'm not terribly happy with that, as the Str in particular should be higher, but 5e's point-buy doesn't allow for stats over 15 (+1 for human) and we've seen many dire warnings from DMs about not letting PCs start with a 16 or higher. Fundamentally, though, I made sure to stick with the 27-point buy guideline given in the 5e rules.

Obviously, you could also argue that Conan's stats should be rolled, and point out that that's also a rules-legal way of generating stats in 5e. Which is fine, but I'd counter by arguing that you should go for a reasonable rather than extreme 'rolled' array. But, of course, defining what counts as a "reasonable" rolled array is going to be an exercise in futility.

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

No, but it is the point where the article in the OP goes wrong - it argues that Gandalf was only 5th level because of some D&Disms (specifically the spells he casts), while ignoring some other key D&Disms (specifically that he defeats the Balrog/Balor solo). If you're assessing Gandalf's level in D&D terms, I don't think you can just ignore either of these - and that places him higher than 5th level.

Good points. Another thing about the article is that it kind of represents some of Gandalf's abilities as lighting bolts and fireballs. It also assumes a mage or a similar arcane caster. In the books Gandalf's spells are sometimes portrayed as fire based, but more often his greater feats (when fending off Nazgul and fighting the Balrog) are more closely related to words of power and divine fire/light. If the clash at Weathertop is taken into account he used what seams to be a variant of Flame strike/Burst of flames. I have no idea what level of spell that is in 5E, but in 2E it was lvl 6 or 7. That alone would place him in the early or mid teen levels of 2E. And finally, he is not a mage. He does not learn magic from scrolls. His powers are a manifestation of his nature, even though he can interact with tech and magical objects, just like Saruman did.

The other examples?
Aragorn should be between lvl 6-12, i'd say lvl 10 probably in a class that doesn't exist in 5E, or a multi classed character with unique background (healing and foresight). The sword Anduril is definitely magical in its nature after reforging. "Many runes of protection" were placed on it (it could be designated as a "Defender" weapon in 2E, +AC and saving throws). It also glowed with magical "fire" and raised the morale of the allies and lowered that of the enemies.

The rest of the hard hitters in the Fellowship were probably between lvl 5 and 10 as well. The elves are of course not DnD elves and start with better stats and innate bonuses then humans. Dwarves too.

Imrahil and Eomer are described as of such a skill in battle that they and Aragorn get trough the battle of Pellenor Fields unscathed. Stat wise? In 2E and 3E, Aragorn would probably be Str 16, Dex 17 or 18, Con 19 (higher then all living men). Mental stats would be more difficult to assign. Wis at least 14, probably 16. Int of 12-14. Cha is the trickiest. All that talk about "seamed fairer but feel fouler" lets me think a wide range of 8-14. In 5E, this array would be 14-16-17-12-14-12. Definitely not a point buy, but then again Aragorn is unique.

Conan is even harder to pinpoint. The long time span of his adventures doesn't make it easier. At the peak of his physical might, he was among the strongest (but not THE strongest man alive) so 2E Str 18/90+ or 5e 16-17. He was agile as a "panther" so Dex of 18 in 2E, or 16 in 5E. His Con is extremely high as well, easily 18 or 16, depending on edition. He probably starts with the tough feat as part of a special background and has even more HP then usual. His levels could be anywhere from lvl 4 when he leaves Cimmeria as a youth, to over 12 before he even becomes a king.

EDIT: A note on Gandalf spell casting. He does not seam to expend spell slots when he casts, but rather his own life force or at least his stamina. In 5E terms, i would say he expends hit dice, depending on level of sell cast.

 

[S'mon]

No, but it is the point where the article in the OP goes wrong - it argues that Gandalf was only 5th level because of some D&Disms (specifically the spells he casts), while ignoring some other key D&Disms (specifically that he defeats the Balrog/Balor solo). If you're assessing Gandalf's level in D&D terms, I don't think you can just ignore either of these - and that places him higher than 5th level.

Yeah, with a Balrog/Type VI demon being 8+8 hd, I'd expect Gandalf to be of similar
power - though he may well not have spells over 2nd or 3rd level, he probably has around 8 hit dice and a CON bonus.

 

[S'mon]

In 5e, and for Conan as we first see him, I would suggest a 1st level Human Barbarian with the Criminal (Burglar) background and Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 12.

Seems reasonable, if a 16 is 'mighty-thewed' and most humans don't have a stat over 13.
If typical enemies resemble the 5e MM Guard, Bandit or Cultist with a combat stat of 12-13 (+1), then this looks pretty spot-on.

I would probably put 'Tower of the Elephant' Conan at 3rd level, though.

 

[Uchawi]

I know this is a literary discussion but didn't the Movie Gandalf look more like a Nature Cleric than a Wizard to anyone?

I would compare Gandalf to the paladin class without armor.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I wouldn't try to stat out a Gandalf PC anymore than I'd try to stat out a Balrog PC or a Samug PC. To me he fits best as a Deva with monster spellcasting or with some class levels added to him.

Not to say that you can't try to make a character inspired by and that would play like Gandalf. You could in fact do it in a lot of different ways. Personally, I'd use a lore Bard.

 

[PnPgamer]

So what level would you make austin powers?

 

[delericho]

So what level would you make austin powers?

Oh behave.