(LHHS) OOC Thread I

[Creamsteak]

Attacks:
Claw-Claw-Tailslap +5 melee (1d4+4, 1d4+4, 1d4+2)
*Fullblade +6 melee (2d8+6 if 2-handed 19-20/x2) can use one-or-two handed
* Fullblade-Claw-Tailslap (2d8+4, 1d4+2, 1d4+2) Tailslap does 1d6 with spiked tail gauntlet
* Fullblade-Heavy Lance-Tailslap with Gauntlet (2d8+4, 1d8+2, 1d6+2)

Special Attacks: Tail Reach
Special Qualities: Saurial Qualities (Poison Immunity, Scent, +4 Balance)
Special Defenses: +5 Natural Armor, +4 to resist Bull Rush and Trip attempts
Vision: Normal
AL: CG
Sv: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +2
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 18

Skills: Balance +5 (Tail), Diplomacy +8 (4 Ranks), Speak Language (2 Ranks for speaking Common and Draconic), Jump +5 (1 Rank), Swim +6 (2 Ranks), Hide -3
Feats: Multiattack, Large And In Charge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade).

Equipment: MW Saurial Fullblade, Saurial spiked chainmail, Saurial spiked tail gauntlet (clasps around tail), Tower shield, Heavy Lance

Languages: Draconic, Common

Like this:
Attacks: Fullblade +7 melee, (or 2 claws +6 melee, Tail Slap +4 melee)
Damage: Fullblade 2d8+6, claws 1d4+4, Tail Slap 1d6+2 melee
Face/Reach: 5ft. by 10ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Tail reach
Special Qualities: Poison immunity, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 18
Skills: +5 Balance, +8 Diplomacy, Speak language (Common), Speak language (Draconic), Jump +5, Swim +6, Hide -3
Feats: Multiattack, Large & In Charge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade).

Languages spoken: Draconic, Common

Equipment
MW Saurial Fullblade (300 GP + Weapon Value)
Saurial Spiked Chainmail (650 GP)
Saurial Spike Tail Gauntlet ????
Tower Shield (30 gp)
Heavy Lance (10 gp)

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OK, Q&A time...

Allright, your attack bonuses are really messed up. I put two different "types of attacks" up there to help you out. The first, is your armed attack. The second uses your natural attacks. I've never actually seen a creature that has an armed attack that can be combined with Claw/Claw Bite... but then again I'm not a rule master.

Large and In Charge: Write out the source, and write out the whole feat for me (cause I have no idea what it is)

Is a Fullblade a Huge Greatsword? Is it a weapon that "Breaks the Standards" for a large weapon, so it increases in damage one level and requires exotic weapon proficiency, like a bastard sword?

Spiked Tail Gauntlet = Strange... I know what your going for... but is it really necessary? I'm thinking since all it does is give you a d6 slashing damage instead of bludgeioning... it's not that necessary. I'll still accomadate if it's just an aspect you want.

Your over your GP limit (your chainmail costs x4 because it's for a non-humanoid and large (Saurial are Monstrous Humanoids in whatever source you got them from, right? Well that should still be in play.) If they are competely humanoid the cost for the armor is still 300 gp for being fitted for a large humanoid.

Edit: Checked something... Your a Reptillian Humanoid, so yes you pay 4x the base cost for armor. Your also an Aquatic Reptillian Humaoid if you choose (though I think your aiming for non-aquatic). Add 50 to the base cost for spikes... I think.

I'm not trying to cut you down at all, I just don't understand a lot of elements your trying to include because I've never had to deal with them before, and learning how to deal with them is what I want to do.

 

[reapersaurus]

-------End Transmission------

OK, Q&A time...

Allright, your attack bonuses are really messed up. I put two different "types of attacks" up there to help you out. The first, is your armed attack. The second uses your natural attacks. I've never actually seen a creature that has an armed attack that can be combined with Claw/Claw Bite... but then again I'm not a rule master.

Large and In Charge: Write out the source, and write out the whole feat for me (cause I have no idea what it is)

Is a Fullblade a Huge Greatsword? Is it a weapon that "Breaks the Standards" for a large weapon, so it increases in damage one level and requires exotic weapon proficiency, like a bastard sword?

Spiked Tail Gauntlet = Strange... I know what your going for... but is it really necessary? I'm thinking since all it does is give you a d6 slashing damage instead of bludgeioning... it's not that necessary. I'll still accomadate if it's just an aspect you want.

Your over your GP limit (your chainmail costs x4 because it's for a non-humanoid and large (Saurial are Monstrous Humanoids in whatever source you got them from, right? Well that should still be in play.) If they are competely humanoid the cost for the armor is still 300 gp for being fitted for a large humanoid.

Edit: Checked something... Your a Reptillian Humanoid, so yes you pay 4x the base cost for armor. Your also an Aquatic Reptillian Humaoid if you choose (though I think your aiming for non-aquatic). Add 50 to the base cost for spikes... I think.

Naw, I think that was very well-detailed, and I have NO problems with us trying to figure out a way to get it "right", and have fun.

First - I'll update the stat block shortly with only one change - Reach.
I was wondering about that, and anyone who knows the rules about it more than I can surmise is welcome, please.
I think most Large creatures get 10' reach.
Exceptions in the MM are things that walk on all fours, or don't have normal appendages.
Does that sound right? *

Second - the attacks.
I just posted to D&D Rules about natural attacks and weapons and the like, and NOONE knows how it works.
This is due to them not having any official source that I can find for how they work exactly.
The only source that I am aware of is Dragon 292 which has an extensive sidebar addressing this particular hole in the published rules.
I don't believe it was intended as alternative or optional rules.
It is written as official rules, which I believe they have done many times in Dragon (gone into more detail about some rules from time to time)

So in Dragon 292 (The issue with the Saurials), they specifically say that a natural-weapon creature (Lizardfolk, Saurials, etc) can go weapon-claw-tail, getting only 1xSTR bonus on the weapon, and the other attacks are considered secondary (1/2 STR bonus, -5 to attack)
That's by the rules as far as I can see.

What I don't know, is what happens (if anything) when he uses a weapon instead of a claw in the other hand.
No one knows, AFAIK, and it is totally your call, cs.

LaiC:
Large creatures enjoy several advantages over smaller opponents, including reach, increased damage potential, and bonuses to special maneuvers.

Large and in Charge
[General] You can prevent opponents from closing inside your reach.
Prerequisites: Reach (Large size or larger), Str 17+.
Benefit: When you make a successful attack of opportunity
against an opponent who is moving inside your threatened
area, you can force the opponent back to the square he was in
before he provoked the attack.
After you hit with your attack of opportunity, make an opposed
Strength check against your opponent. You gain a +4 bonus
for each size category larger than your opponent you are, and an
additional +1 bonus for every 5 points of damage you dealt with
your attack of opportunity. If you win the opposed check, your
opponent is pushed back 5 feet into the square he just left.

Fullblade:Huge
Fullblade 100 gp 2d8 19-20/x2 — 23 lb. Slashing
A fullblade is 18 inches longer than a greatsword, and is too large for a Medium-size creature
to use at all. A Large creature could use the fullblade with one hand, but would suffer the standard –4 nonproficiency penalty to its attack rolls, or with two hands as a martial weapon. A Large creature with the Exotics Weapon proficiency could use the fullblade in one hand with no penalty. A fullblade is also called an ogre’s greatsword.

Tail Spikes - no, it's not a critical aspect of the character, but it is one of the things that appeals to me that makes him more of an intelligent dinosaur.
I was basically fleshing him out, thinking, "If I was a warrior that had a tail that I could use to bludgeon people, wouldn't it be better if I clamped some spikes on that big 'ol tail o'mine?"

Armor costs: I thought it was double costs?
hmm.... it mentions "Saurials do not suffer any additional penalties for wearing armor, assuming that it has been modified to accomodate a tail."
I wonder if they mean what you say about "Reptilian Humanoid".
I checked their stat-block and it says "Large Humanoid (Reptilian)"

If it's too expensive, I'll just have him get some really cheap armor....

P.S. I like statting out characters and expanding my knowledge of the system. Thanks for going thru it.

 

[Creamsteak]

You have 10 foot reach, and that recieves no objections from me. That's what being a large/tall creature means, reach.

Actually, someone knows how it is supposed to work (Monte Cook). IMO it's either Claw/Claw/Tail or Normal attack rules, since Multi-attack really is only used in conjunction with natural weapons.

Large and In Charge sounds very very very strange. It sounds like it's a combination Bull Rush/Attack...

I think it needs to be vetoed. I'd prefer it if you selected another feat.

I think they made the weapon Huge in order to prevent medium sized characters from wielding it, but I think that doesn't sound right when translated compared to any other weapons... stat wise that is... It's a rule-breaker weapon like a bastard sword... and it's not unbalanced IMO so it's fine.

Your Tail "gauntlet" will just be Tail Spikes. They cost 50 gp as the base price, and can be bought in B/P (like a morning Star). 1d8 damage with a x2 crit. They weigh 32 lbs and negate the balance/swim/jump and other properties of your tail.

 

[reapersaurus]

wow. 1d8 - more than i was thinking!
As you surmised, the tail spikes are more for characterization and logical approach to weaponry than anything else.

About LaiC: the feat is really the centerpiece of the section in Sword & Fist about Large creatures and how they could impact combat.
They talk about a Minotaur having levels in fighter or monk and how they could make PC's crap in their pants. So I thought it would be fun to see how it could work for a PC.
It's one of the reasons I wanted to play a large creature in a combat-heavy game.

It's not applicable AFAIK unless they try to move up within your reach and attack - not useable in a situation where the Large creatrure moves up to the smaller and attacks.

Let me know if you want me to remove it - also, has anyone seen it used in any game they played?

 

[Creamsteak]

I'm just really disturbed at the free bull rush in an AO (well not an actual Bull Rush, but a similar affect...)

And it will be hard for me to remember how to deal with... of course I'm notorious for dispising risking getting hit with an AO...

Are you sure there isn't another feat you can take though...

If there is another feat you can take, at least for now, that would please me. Later on, you can pick it up... let's say, when you have 4 total HD (so next level for you)... I'll even let you take it as a fighter bonus feat.

 

[Creamsteak]

Kal is giving me a hand with your attacks/damage.

Attacks: Fullblade +7 melee, +4 Claw
Damage: Fullblade 2d8+4, Claw 1d4+2

Attacks: Fullblade +7 melee, Tailslap +4 melee
Damage: Fullblade 2d8+6, Tailslap 1d8+2

I "think" you can use either of these two attack methods as a full round action as I put them. You can't Fullblade/Claw/Tailslap without incurring Two Weapon Fighting penalties.

 

[reapersaurus]

Sure!
I can substitute Power Attack for it, if you'd like.
That was going to be the next Fighter feat, so I'll look at getting LaiC later.

As for the attacks, you certainly can rule however you feel would be best for your game.... just know that weapon/claw/tail IS by the book rules, as far as I know.

If there is any other source that specifies natural weapon rules in 3E combat system for characters, I'd go by that, but I think Dragon 292 is the place where Wizards chose to publish them.

Is the Sage email address thesage@wizards.com, if that would make any difference? (i.e. if you are unconvinced of the validity of the rules source? - I wish I could post the whole 5 paragraph long article...)

oh- what's your verdict on the cost of armor?
If it's 4 times base, where's the souce for humanoid creatures getting the 4x cost? (I'm blanking on where to find that)

again, cs - it's your game we're playing in here, so you make the calls that make you feel the most comfortable.
BTW: If there's one rules tweak I'd wish for, it wouldn't be these - it'd be Divine Might being activated as a free action.

 

[Darkwolf]

special block on page 105 of the PBB:
Armor for Unusual Creatures
....Armor for Large characters costs double and weighs twice as much....
Armor for a nonhumanoid creatures costs twice as much as the same armor for a humanoid...

So x4 cost.

My take on the natural attacks/weapon attacks is that there is no way you can use claw attacks and still swing a sword. Most of the time the only natural attack you can get away with is a bite as that doesn't mess up your balance much. If you start swinging fullblades and try to attack with your tail also I would rule you would end up on the ground in a tangled mess.

 

[reapersaurus]

special block on page 105 of the PBB:
Armor for Unusual Creatures
Armor for a nonhumanoid creatures costs twice as much as the same armor for a humanoid...

My take on the natural attacks/weapon attacks is :

Saurials ARE humanoids.
Maybe people are not understanding or listening.

I checked their stat-block and it says "Large Humanoid (Reptilian)"

As for your take on natural attacks - I personally have no take.
I've only been quoting rules as best I can determine.

 

[reapersaurus]

I just found another source:
Half-fiend template in MM:

It grants 2 claw attacks and a bite.
It gives the option of either 2 claws or +8/+3 attack with dagger, and also a secondary bite (as well as snakes).

But in general, I don't think stat-blocks are the best way to guess at rules.
The only place I know where it specifically states it is Dragon 292.

But if you choose to make it different, I'll have to decide whether to dump the Exotic WP: Fullblade and just go with huge 2-handed greatsword, or drop the Multiattack.