Licensing, OGL and Getting D&D Compatible Publishers Involved

There's one point that I keep bringing up with regards to the OGL.

How do you make it work with the DDI?

Right now, even though we haven't had a new WOTC product in over a year, they STILL have around 80000 subscribers. That's somewhere, as a was mentioned, between 5 and 8 million dollars a year. That's HUGE in a market that's only worth 30 million dollars total. WOTC controls between a quarter and third of the entire market with a single product that costs them virtually nothing to keep running.

If you go with an OGL PHB, an entirely open PHB, it will take about a week before people put up free character builders and whatnot. We saw that before. Within a month of 4e coming out, you had for pay character builders going up. They got shut down, because the GSL doesn't allow for that. But an open 5e? That just opens the floodgates.

Now, how many new PHB's do you have to sell in order to make up the losses to the DDI and the steady revenue stream that represents? How do you have an open 5e and still protect that cash cow?

What you do is what Wizards should have done from the start. You create an API to the DDI database, with authentication for DDI subscribers. You also create a system that allows DDI subscribers to sign up and pay for third-party services. Then you encourage third-party developers to target your API and benefit from a) a back end already built and ready to go, b) up-to-date stats with errata applied, c) access to Product Identity material, and d) Wizards handling the nitty gritty of charging credit cards and managing subscriptions. (Have you ever worked with credit card processing systems on the Web? I have. It's a huge pain.)

And throw open the doors! As a whole, the D&D fanbase is creative, slightly obsessive, and very tech-savvy. Inside a month they'll create better online tools than Wizards has ever been able to build, and most of them will require a DDI subscription. Sure, you could just build your own database of open material without recourse to the API. But why take on the hassle of keeping it up to date, scrubbing it to make sure there's no Product Identity stuff, and handling your own authentication and billing, when you could let Wizards take care of all that and focus on making your app the best it can be?

End result: Wizards gets the goodwill of being "open," a bunch of highly motivated and talented developers working for free to make DDI better, and the DDI revenue stream continuing to flow.

(Now, this approach doesn't require an OGL. It could be done under the GSL or an even stricter regime. But going OGL wouldn't undercut it and might encourage it.)
 
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What's stopping the D&D Next version of OGL to require the publishers to print something similar?

We are talking two different licenses here. The OGL allows anyone to use anything published under it - essentially the SRD in the D&D 3e case - and do with it whatever she wants. There is no connection whatsoever with any trademark owned by Wizards/Hasbro. It cannot be revoked or rescinded, thus Paizo may publish Pathfinder stuff until humanity has died.

The other one allowed publishers to use the Dungeons & Dragons logo on their products and required the byline mentioned in my post. It could and has been revoked. After this, 3pp had to remove the D&D logo from their products.

So we have one license covering content (OGL) and one covering trademarks (D20). I can't imagine any corporation handing out usage of their trademarks on an infinite basis. (Wouldn't make this the trademark impossible to defend under American law, anyway?)
 

Hussar said:
There's one point that I keep bringing up with regards to the OGL.

How do you make it work with the DDI?

I'd say the same way that offering free PDF downloads with subscription-based print products, plus an online System Reference Document (and a fan-generated wiki of OGL materials) works for Paizo, but that's just me.

Right now, even though we haven't had a new WOTC product in over a year, they STILL have around 80000 subscribers. That's somewhere, as a was mentioned, between 5 and 8 million dollars a year. That's HUGE in a market that's only worth 30 million dollars total. WOTC controls between a quarter and third of the entire market with a single product that costs them virtually nothing to keep running.

There are a large number of assumptions here that are not necessarily true.

The big fiction is that there's any way of measuring the number of DDI subscribers. There's not.

The numbers that get so often cited are self-reported by WotC - which creates credibility problems right there, not because WotC is necessarily dishonest, but simply because it's in their business interests to make sure that they never admit that something of theirs is floundering (unless it's part of a strategy to tell you how their new thing is about to fix all of that). These numbers are always going to be high, because that makes them look successful.

Moreover, the number of subscribers are pretty clearly something manually tabulated, rather than being auto-generated by a program based on the number of subscriptions at any given moment. The way you know that is that the numbers should be varying by some not-inconsiderable degree on at least a per day basis, as at any given time people will be signing up or cancelling their service. That these numbers are relatively static for long stretches shows that someone is going in and manually toggling them at various intervals - which casts further doubt on their reliability.

The idea that the DDI makes them money equal to X subscribers times Y dollars per month over a 12 month basis is also fatally flawed, as that's a measure of gross revenue, not net. I know that some people scoff at the idea that producing the DDI costs any significant revenue at all, which is an excellent way of easily identifying the people who don't know about the costs that go into maintaining (let alone updating) a system of any type, let alone an internet-based one. Make no mistake, it does not cost WotC "virtually nothing" to keep the DDI up and running, and the total profits it makes them (presuming the subscription numbers are even close to accurate) is not the gross.

Finally, the market estimation of $30 strikes me as something that needs citing, but bear that in mind against Ryan Dancy having told us that Hasbro set annual targets of $50-$100 million annually for D&D as a brand. Even in the highly-suspicious circumstances that they're actually making $30 million net profit off of the D&D, that's not nearly enough.

Finally, the DDI at this point consists of little more than the 4E tools, which are naturally going to become less valuable over time as 4E becomes an unsupported game. That's not edition warring - unsupported games lose profitability fairly rapidly; it's why Paizo decided to make Pathfinder its own RPG to begin with, rather than just continuing to print 3.5 supplements. Keeping the DDI at 4E-levels of profitability will require a not-insignificant investment to make it a 5E-compatible tool, regardless of whatever else they decide to do with it...and as mentioned, that's a time-and-money sink, potentially a huge one.

The DDI is not the cash cow a lot of people seem to think it is.

If you go with an OGL PHB, an entirely open PHB, it will take about a week before people put up free character builders and whatnot. We saw that before. Within a month of 4e coming out, you had for pay character builders going up. They got shut down, because the GSL doesn't allow for that. But an open 5e? That just opens the floodgates.


Not particularly - HeroLab hasn't been the death of any particular game, and in fact it's common for smaller companies to tout their HeroLab compatibility. Quite simply, the idea that another pay-for character builder is a serious threat to, well, anything is like saying that having an SRD will make people give up on buying Core Rulebooks. It's demonstrably untrue, and has been for years.

Now, how many new PHB's do you have to sell in order to make up the losses to the DDI and the steady revenue stream that represents? How do you have an open 5e and still protect that cash cow?

See above. These questions are based on premises that, when scrutinzed, are suspect at best.
 

We are talking two different licenses here. The OGL allows anyone to use anything published under it - essentially the SRD in the D&D 3e case - and do with it whatever she wants. There is no connection whatsoever with any trademark owned by Wizards/Hasbro. It cannot be revoked or rescinded, thus Paizo may publish Pathfinder stuff until humanity has died.

The other one allowed publishers to use the Dungeons & Dragons logo on their products and required the byline mentioned in my post. It could and has been revoked. After this, 3pp had to remove the D&D logo from their products.

So we have one license covering content (OGL) and one covering trademarks (D20). I can't imagine any corporation handing out usage of their trademarks on an infinite basis. (Wouldn't make this the trademark impossible to defend under American law, anyway?)
He does specifically say the D&D Next version of the OGL, not the OGL itself. The 4e version of the OGL was the GSL, which combined the functions of the d20 license and the OGL. I expect the 5e license to do the same, although not as restrictively as the GSL.
 

As far as whether Pathfinder outsold D&D, here's what Lisa Stevens had to say in the Paizo blog a while ago. Take it with a grain of salt if you think she's got reason to lie about this:



Now how much of that is due to Paizo going totally OGL with their rules is up in the air, but I'm betting the folks at Paizo would probably say it helps.

Regardless, I doubt the OGL fits in with WotC's business plan, and my guess is that 5th edition doesn't even offer a half-effort like it did with the GSL.

She is, again, talking about print-only products, not digital products. And, again, at that point WOTC had moved to the DDI as their primary distribution method, which Stevens was not measuring at all.

How many years are we all going to engage in this identical argument, with Paizo fans arguing Pathfinder outsold BOOKS, and WOTC fans arguing that WOTC outsold DIGITAL? Can't we all just admit "We don't know" and let it go already?
 

The DDI subscription numbers from the last iteration of the forum software at WotC I think were pretty spot on. And I think it did indeed behave just like a number calculated automatically by the number of DDI subscribers becoming forum members. I'm pretty satisfied that that number was correct and served as a great bottom line for the number of subscribers. The current software they are using seems less so. That number seems to be all over the place and I don't trust it but maybe it'll turn out once they get all the bugs worked out. I don't think that WotC fakes that number in any way, nor do I think they leave it inflated artificially, it has gone down before.

Now as it only measuring revenue, I agree. We don't know how much they are spending, nor do we know how many accounts there are over that number.

As an aside the number of folks who are Paizo forum accounts and subscribe to Paizo product is public knowledge. Every Paizo forum account lists out what that user is subscribed to. It's only a matter of effort to collect it and count them up and get a similar lower bound of subscribers to Paizo products, much like the DDI number.

I think we could indeed get something at least interesting though not completely answering the question of who has more subscribers. I do think the number of Paizo subscribers with a forum account tied to thier subscription would be a much higher ratio than the DDI one.
 
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She is, again, talking about print-only products, not digital products. And, again, at that point WOTC had moved to the DDI as their primary distribution method, which Stevens was not measuring at all.

How many years are we all going to engage in this identical argument, with Paizo fans arguing Pathfinder outsold BOOKS, and WOTC fans arguing that WOTC outsold DIGITAL? Can't we all just admit "We don't know" and let it go already?

Well, if we can get an idea of the extent to which Paizo outsold D&D in books, and calculate WotC's gross income from DDI subs, we should be able to work out a very rough estimate of who is in fact selling better. Of course that doesn't answer who's making more profits--that depends on printing costs for books and maintenance overhead for DDI, neither of which we are likely to learn--but it could answer the question of which is more popular, in the sense of end users being willing to shell out cash for it.
 

The big fiction is that there's any way of measuring the number of DDI subscribers. There's not.

Except, there is...the membership in the DDI message board does accurately fluctuate depending on when people join and loose access. This has been experimented with pretty extensively at this point. The only thing we don't know is how many people insist on an unsubscribe from that forum while remaining subscribers to DDI...so the number can only under-report, and not over-report. But, it's an accurate "floor" for the number of subscribers.

The numbers that get so often cited are self-reported by WotC

No it's not. It's not based on a report from them at all. It's based on a ticker attached to a particular automated forum subscription. In fact, I don't recall ANY self-reporting from WOTC. Do you have a link to such a statement?

Moreover, the number of subscribers are pretty clearly something manually tabulated, rather than being auto-generated by a program based on the number of subscriptions at any given moment. The way you know that is that the numbers should be varying by some not-inconsiderable degree on at least a per day basis, as at any given time people will be signing up or cancelling their service. That these numbers are relatively static for long stretches shows that someone is going in and manually toggling them at various intervals - which casts further doubt on their reliability.

They are automated, people have experimented and proven they are automated, and it DOES fluctuate frequently. You can test it yourself if you like. Check the number, then subscribe to DDI, then check the number again, then cancel, and then once you get the notification of cancellation check the number once again. You will see it alters with each event.

The idea that the DDI makes them money equal to X subscribers times Y dollars per month over a 12 month basis is also fatally flawed, as that's a measure of gross revenue, not net.

It's not fatally flawed, it's merely a useful data point which is entirely not contained within the larger "Pathfinder outsold WOTC in books" argument. It's certainly an important data point, and it does involve both a very large source of revenue, and a large source of profits, for WOTC. Pretending it doesn't exist because it's difficult to measure isn't helpful.

The DDI is not the cash cow a lot of people seem to think it is.

It generates lots of money. How much profit is in dispute. That it's not enough profit to satisfy WOTC is not in dispute, but then how much profit satisfies WOTC is not the same as how much profit would satisfy another company like Paizo.
 

Well, if we can get an idea of the extent to which Paizo outsold D&D in books, and calculate WotC's gross income from DDI subs, we should be able to work out a very rough estimate of who is in fact selling better. Of course that doesn't answer who's making more profits--that depends on printing costs for books and maintenance overhead for DDI, neither of which we are likely to learn--but it could answer the question of which is more popular, in the sense of end users being willing to shell out cash for it.

A big chunk of Paizo sales are also digital, so you'd have to factor that in. Maybe some day someone will run the calculation, but the Paizo calculation would take a lot more work to run, and as far as I know nobody has done it. Nor could they anymore - as we're talking about a time frame long gone now.
 

WotC isn't going to do the OGL again. They won't do the GSL either. They're going to aim for a middle ground that allows people to produce supplemental material, like adventures and options, but not wholesale reproduction of the core game.

I think you have just described exactly the thinking behind the GSL. And frankly, it flopped.
 

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