D&D 5E Life Cleric Multiclass armor prof

[UngeheuerLich]

I do believe it will support our viewpoint. As I said. The warlock was interpreted in our way and it got errata.

 

[Celtavian]

I disagree. Nowhere in the multiclassing rules does it distinguish the origin of the proficiencies. It simply talks about "starting proficiencies". The proficiencies listed between "hit points" and "equipment" are not entitled "starting proficiencies". You're making that up.

No. I'm not making that up. You are making up that archetype class features are determined by character level.

 

[Celtavian]

I do believe it will support our viewpoint. As I said. The warlock was interpreted in our way and it got errata.

Show me where warlock class features are based on character level.

 

[Celtavian]

But it might. A priori it's 50/50. Exciting, isn't it?

No. It's ridiculous that an archetype class feature is being grouped with starting proficiencies when it is clear that they should not be grouped.

 

[BoldItalic]

No. It's ridiculous that an archetype class feature is being grouped with starting proficiencies when it is clear that they should not be grouped.

As will be evident from this thread, there are two schools of thought on that.

If the official ruling proves me wrong, I will bend with the wind and give all the */Life Clerics in my games Heavy Armour Proficiency as a free Christmas bonus. They will like that. I will be (more) popular with my players.

If it goes the other way, and the answer is along the lines of "intent is no", you will presumably have some explaining to do at your tables, and you will hate me forever for putting you in that position. I can live with that.

The only problem is if my tweet goes unanswered and we don't get a ruling. In that case, I propose we call a Christmas truce on Wednesday.

 

[thalmin]

I choose to interpret the multiclassing proficiency limitations to only refer to those for the class in general. Anything included in the archetypes is granted. But to hold with what I believe to be RAI, should an archetype include a substitution for one of the proficiencies, you can't substitute what you wouldn't get.
On a slightly different take, a starting wizard gets a spellbook containing 6 spells (book is not free), and adds 2 spells (free) for each wizard level after the first. I would limit the starting spells for someone multiclassing into wizard to just 2 spells in the book, unless somehow able to find or purchase more. Of course, cantrips known are unchanged by this. This is based on the multiclassing statement that multiclassing does not provide any new equipment (page 64, first paragraph under Class Features).

 

[Celtavian]

As will be evident from this thread, there are two schools of thought on that.

If the official ruling proves me wrong, I will bend with the wind and give all the */Life Clerics in my games Heavy Armour Proficiency as a free Christmas bonus. They will like that. I will be (more) popular with my players.

If it goes the other way, and the answer is along the lines of "intent is no", you will presumably have some explaining to do at your tables, and you will hate me forever for putting you in that position. I can live with that.

The only problem is if my tweet goes unanswered and we don't get a ruling. In that case, I propose we call a Christmas truce on Wednesday.

Hate you forever? A bit presumptuous. My table will care little. I don't believe you are right, but I agree with the logic of your position. You have me confused with someone arguing that your viewpoint isn't the more logical viewpoint. It is. I don't think the rules will support you.

If the errata Ungeh is referring to regarding the warlock, that will only further support the position that class level determines abilities unless they specify otherwise. There is no language in the Life Cleric to specify otherwise. Just like there was no language in the warlock class specifying that warlock level determined the prerequisite for warlock abilities. Crawford clarified that warlock class level was the intended level to determine the warlock invocation prerequisites. I doubt he reverses his position now and starts determining the archetype abilities are determined by character level rather than class level.

If he rules your way, that will open a Pandora's box requiring he rule on every ability that does not specify class or character level. I truly doubt he wants to open that box for something as trivial one domain. The wording for Tempest and War cleric doesn't use the same as the Life domain, so he would have to rule on that as well.

I don't care one way or the other. The only multiclass cleric anyone has played in my games was by a bard. He didn't wear heavy armor after multiclassing because he liked to Stealth. This will have zero effect on my games.

The only problem I would have with Crawford's ruling would be all the headaches it would create for all the other archetypes that give proficiencies or abilities. Suddenly DMs will be asking themselves, "Does this mean character level or class level?" And arguments like this one will ensue.

 

[BoldItalic]

The only problem I would have with Crawford's ruling would be all the headaches it would create for all the other archetypes that give proficiencies or abilities. Suddenly DMs will be asking themselves, "Does this mean character level or class level?" And arguments like this one will ensue.

Ah, I see your concern. Don't worry. It's only first-level class or archetype features that grant bonus proficiencies that can possibly conflict with the multiclass proficiencies restrictions. There is no possible conflict with class or archetype features at higher levels (because you can't multiclass into anything other than first level in your new class) nor with features that relate to anything other than proficiencies. Whichever way the decision is made, there's no risk of leakage.

The only class features that grant bonus proficiencies at level one relate to cleric domains. No other PHB class or archetype does this, so the problem is limited to clerics. The domains that grant bonus proficiencies at level one are:

• Knowledge (Blessings of Knowledge grants extra skills proficiencies)
• Life (Bonus Proficiency - Heavy Armour)
• Nature (Acolyte of Nature grants an extra skill proficiency)
• Tempest & War (Bonus Proficiencies - Martial Weapons and Heavy Armour)

Those are the only ones where we have to even wonder if there is a problem. Everything else is plain sailing. Now, the OP asked about the Life domain, so this thread has concentrated mainly on that, but the answer might conceivably impinge on the other four domains that I've listed. Or not, depending on the answer. But that's the limit of the possible doubt.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Show me where warlock class features are based on character level.

Incantations are based on class level. Thirsting blade for example. Before the errata it was only "5th level", and no surprise some people did interpret it as total character level. Now with the cleric, I strongly believe the same people are claiming that in the cleric entry, level clearly means class level. As I said, some people read ambiguous things in the most favourable way (for them, of course).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ah, I see your concern. Don't worry. It's only first-level class or archetype features that grant bonus proficiencies that can possibly conflict with the multiclass proficiencies restrictions. There is no possible conflict with class or archetype features at higher levels (because you can't multiclass into anything other than first level in your new class) nor with features that relate to anything other than proficiencies. Whichever way the decision is made, there's no risk of leakage.

The only class features that grant bonus proficiencies at level one relate to cleric domains. No other PHB class or archetype does this, so the problem is limited to clerics. The domains that grant bonus proficiencies at level one are:

• Knowledge (Blessings of Knowledge grants extra skills proficiencies)
• Life (Bonus Proficiency - Heavy Armour)
• Nature (Acolyte of Nature grants an extra skill proficiency)
• Tempest & War (Bonus Proficiencies - Martial Weapons and Heavy Armour)

Those are the only ones where we have to even wonder if there is a problem. Everything else is plain sailing. Now, the OP asked about the Life domain, so this thread has concentrated mainly on that, but the answer might conceivably impinge on the other four domains that I've listed. Or not, depending on the answer. But that's the limit of the possible doubt.

I think, Nature and knowledge don´t count towards the problematic class features. In this case it seemd those abilities are not called bonus proficiency but have a special name. I think it was no mistake, because those abilities are essential for the class, while life and war and tempest actually don´t depend on those proficiencies. (You could make a case for the war domain, that it needs those proficiencies, but if the fighter does not gain heavy armor, why should the cleric?)