lightning bolt cover?

[Celtavian]

Re

Aggeman,

I don't disagree with you. I just don't agree that a person is considered cover in the same way that a wall would be considered cover for area of effect spells.

That would mean the last guy in a line of five guys is nearly totally immune to the lightning bolt, and thus it wouldn't really be an area of effect spell.

The cover must be something that will actually halt the lightning bolt such as a wall. If that wall is destroyed, then the wall doesn't provide cover either because it was destroyed.

A person should not count as cover because they provide no protection against an area of effect spell that they cannot halt. The spell conducts right through them in the case of a lightning bolt or spreads around them in the case of a fireball.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Hmm, but the way I see it is that when you are standing in cover and seeing the effect coming you have some amount time to actually take advantage of your cover (ducking in behind the guy in front of you, or whatever) and that is why you get the reflex save bonus.

 

[Dingleberry]

I don't think standing behind another creature should provide cover against a fireball or lightning bolt either, but that is what the rules plainly state.

Table 8-9, PHB p. 133: "behind a creature of same size" = "one-half cover" with a +2 Cover Reflex save bonus.

"Cover Reflex Save Bonus", PHB p.133: "Add this bonus to Reflex saves against attacks that affect an area, such as a red dragon's breath or a fireball."

Lightning bolt spell description, PHB p.222: "Area: 5 ft. wide to medium range (100 ft. + 10 ft./level); or 10 ft. wide to 50 ft. + 5 ft./level".

Fireball is expressly given as an example, and lightning bolt affects an area.

I can't find anything under "Area" (PHB p.149), "Line of Effect" (PHB p.150) or anywhere else that provides an exception for fireball or lightning bolt.

So by the rules, creature 2 in your example gets a +2 to its Reflex save. Anything else is house rules - warranted, maybe, but definitely house rules.

 

[kreynolds]

Fireball is expressly given as an example, and lightning bolt affects an area.

IMO, it's not that simple. Note, however, that lightning bolt is not a burst, cone, cylinder, or emanating spell, etc. It simply fries anything in the area. That is the exception.

Given that, we now know that you simply need line of effect. Medium-size creatures do not always block line of effect. They aren't big enough. All it takes is a single 1-foot opening in a barrier to allow an area spell to fully effect what is on the other side. In other words, a barrier with a 1-foot opening isn't a barrier to the spell at all. A medium-size creature is not big enough to block the entire square he is standing in (unless he can wildshape into a gelatinous cube real quick, which that would be cool!). The lightning bolt will simply flow right past him into the next guy, and the next, and the next, because none of them are barriers.

A Fireball, on the other hand, has to bend around whatever blocks it. No matter how big or small, the fireball might just make it around it, so I think you should get cover from that, like with a tower shield or standing behind someone.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Re: Re

Aggeman,

I don't disagree with you. I just don't agree that a person is considered cover in the same way that a wall would be considered cover for area of effect spells.

And that is a valid standpoint so that is ok. See my comment above.

The thing I wanted to nitpick about is; that is an 'M' not an 'N' in the end of my nickname, otherwise it would not make sense (in danish 'aggemam' does make sense).

 

[AGGEMAM]

IMO, it's not that simple. Note, however, that lightning bolt is not a burst, cone, cylinder, or emanating spell, etc. It simply fries anything in the area. That is the exception.

That is what I thought as well, but it does say that the bolt starts at your fingertips, so it is contained in the area effect spells starting at some point on the other side of the cover rule.

 

[kreynolds]

...but it does say that the bolt starts at your fingertips, so it is contained in the area effect spells starting at some point on the other side of the cover rule.

Very true. Nice catch.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

The rule concerning cover for two medium sized creatures applies only to reach weapons. It does not apply generally to my knowledge.

 

[Dingleberry]

IMO, it's not that simple. Note, however, that lightning bolt is not a burst, cone, cylinder, or emanating spell, etc. It simply fries anything in the area. That is the exception.

Given that, we now know that you simply need line of effect. Medium-size creatures do not always block line of effect. They aren't big enough. All it takes is a single 1-foot opening in a barrier to allow an area spell to fully effect what is on the other side. In other words, a barrier with a 1-foot opening isn't a barrier to the spell at all. A medium-size creature is not big enough to block the entire square he is standing in (unless he can wildshape into a gelatinous cube real quick, which that would be cool!). The lightning bolt will simply flow right past him into the next guy, and the next, and the next, because none of them are barriers.

So, from a rules perspective, you're looking to the stated exception of "these bonuses, however, only apply to attacks that originate or spread from a point on the other side of the cover." If you interpret the "area" description of lightning bolt to affect the entire area at the same time - if there is not a path and therefore nothing to get behind (more like grease) - then that exception could apply. However, given the spell description's use of phrases like "the bolt begins at your fingertips", "in its path", and "the bolt may continue beyond the barrier", I would (and do) rule that the spell starts at the caster and then travels, making it an attack that originates from a point on the other side of the cover - so the cover bonus applies.

Edit: dang, I need to learn to type faster.

 

[kreynolds]

Edit: dang, I need to learn to type faster.

Yup.