D&D 5E Limitations on Plane Shift?

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It's always been a thing and I'm Ok with high level characters resolving issues in that fashion, but it used to drop you in a random place within a couple days travel of where you wanted to go and not right at the edge of the dungeon map.
By "used to" drop you in a random place do you mean 3e? Because in 1e you arrive right where you want to, if you know where you're going; and that's the bit that causes headaches: a party can be deep in a dungeon, planeshift home for the weekend, then planeshift back to precisely where they came from. All it takes is two castings for each trip.

Needless to say, I had to rein that in. :)
 

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Coroc

Hero
....

* - and yes this means a character can use its place of birth as an arrival point, if returning to its home world

Now that one is super cool, great logic conclusion which is somehow obvious, but wouldn't it eventually be the place of the reception (which does not necessarily have to be the place of the act) ? Since technically mother's womb is not actually outer plane or is it :p ?
 

Coroc

Hero
@iserith: So let's start with what seems to be the fundamental basis of your objection, the claim that this is no different than a party acquiring the ability to fly and the OP has simply failed to engage in proper encounter design. Now, flight can put severe constraints on encounter design and there is a point beyond which all encounters have to assume that the party can fly if they are to provide credible challenge. But the first access a party is like to get to flight is the flight spell at 3rd level, which only has a 10 minute duration. So the constraints that puts on encounter design is rather weak. There is a point beyond which wilderness exploration no longer presents a credible challenge to a party with access to magic because they will have magical protection against the elements, magical portable shelters, the ability to conjure food and drink, magical transportation or even teleportation, and as such none of the challenges normally associated with survival in the wild are really relevant. But, again, that point is at a relatively high level, and there is a ton of space in which to design wilderness adventures with survival challenge components where magic might provide some help but doesn't provide a ready solution to every problem.

However, there is a categorical difference between the design constraint on scenarios and encounters that the 5e version of Planeshift imposes and something like the 3rd level flight spell, and that is that the Planeshift spell is likely the first means of reaching the planes the players are likely to have. So there isn't really any room below it. There is no space here between accessing the planes and nigh perfect mastery of access to the planes. This is a reliable, precise, mass means of transportation that makes no demands on the party. It whisks you reliably to where you want to go without even having knowledge of the destination. That's a totally different issue than a PC can fly for 10 minutes if he concentrates. It's more akin to a design where the 3rd level spell conjured a flying carpet for the party to use for 24 hours, resulting in reliable mass flight the first time flight as a resource was likely encountered.

This isn't a problem just for DM's playing 'gotcha' like a DM that wants to insist the players can't use fire against trolls. This isn't just a problem for a novice DM who designs a murder mystery without paying attention to the divination techniques available to the party members, or who is struggling to keep shopkeepers from being robbed by PC's because he failed to imagine a society where magic is prevalent and been in long existence and the PC's use of basic illusions and invisibility is something he can't handle. If my opinion was based on any of those sort of things, you'd expect my opinions on fire use by parties against trolls to be very different than they are.

Certainly you could make an argument that such things are a problem that DMs shouldn't have to deal with and that spells like invisibility or flight or persistently misleveled for historical reasons considering the profound impact those abilities can have. But no such argument is necessary for what I'm talking about.

A reliable precise means of mass instantaneous transportation provides severe constraints on encounter design that goes beyond just needing to deal with flight or create food and water. It's not just exploration that potentially goes away - even though exploration on the outer planes is often a good next step in wilderness exploration once the challenges of more mundane exploration go away and this blocks it. The new design of the spell also challenges investigation challenges since the PC needs no special familiarity with the new location at all.

And this is incoherent because the 5e designers otherwise went out of there way to address this as a problem, making changes to the game which are obviously designed to prevent instantaneous transport spells from easily wrecking scenarios.

Again, consider the changes around teleport. Not only did teleport move up to 7th level, giving DMs more space to design encounters that couldn't be bypassed by teleport, but 'Teleport Without Error' went away entirely. The new teleport isn't reliable and can't teleport to an unknown location. You need some degree of familiarity just to get there even with repeated tries. Attempts to go to an unknown location reasonably go very badly. You need at the very least an accurate description of the location you are attempting to go to.

But Planeshift at the same level has no such restriction. It is reliable and doesn't require an accurate description and is precise to the level of per the description at least delivering you to the general area. So the alterations to how Teleport works are undone by the alterations to how Planeshift works. That's incoherent.

Some indication that what the designers were trying to achieve is eliminate reliable mass pin point instantaneous transportation can be found in the built in ambiguity of the spell. Namely, the spell specifically calls out that the DM by fiat may block pinpoint transportation if such transportation wouldn't make for a fun scenario. But the designer seems to think it sufficient for the purposes of the spell that the DM will be able to place the party in the starting location of his choice - essentially at the entrance of the dungeon. As the OP points out though, this call out doesn't handle the problem of a hidden or secret destination. Teleport is blocked from working in that situation, but Planeshift allows this restriction to be bypassed.

I understand the intention of the DM fiat callout. Planeshift in its utility mode has always been a defacto DM tool for simultaneously allowing access to the planes and controlling it. The DM has always had the option to fudge the 'miss' roll and locate the players in a position best suited for the needs of the scenario. Removing the random factor and empowering the GM to make a ruling is I think intended to empower the GM to do this without fudging. But, if that's really the intention, why leave open the ability to Planeshift to completely unknown locations? The designer could have called out that Planeshift was only semi-reliable and if shifting to an unknown location, it was highly likely that the party would not land within eyeshot of the destination or have a clear idea where it was located.

But then, I suppose that would make too obvious that this spell running on GM fiat was really a GM tool and could be used in an adversarial way? Point is that the design is weird and stands in contrast to the designs applied elsewhere in the addition. It creates problems without really providing much in the way of a solution. The only real benefit is that a GM might not feel hidebound to force the party to land 300 miles away when such a journey doesn't suit the pacing of the game, but again, if that's the case, just go ahead and say, "Party lands at a destination the GM feels is appropriate." or use some sort of random distance depending on the familiarity that the party has with the destination in parallel to and complementing the implementation of Teleport.

Yo, I totally agree with you on that some means of transportation should be optional gimmicks,
(Teleport fly planeshift levitate etc.) and I also agree that if teleport could per definition end with errors, then the much more complicated planeshift should also have this possibility under circumstances.

What is not accurate in your post is that planeshift is the first encounter / method /means for PCs to encounter other planes. I sent my party three or four times to some ravenloft enclave during their ongoing greyhawk campaign already, with none of them having planeshift as a spell.

Also while I want an built in element of randomness into planeshift for certain scenarios I would also want to have a possibility to arrive in some "safe and secure" locations like the teleport circle for other scenarios. Having a low level party shifted to hell (or Ravenloft) without any direct means to get back is a pet peeve of mine.
But I also want the possibility to run some sophisticated high level planescape campaign, where the tactical use of planeshift spell is part of everyday campaigning.

So I need a rule which fits for both and is optional. E.g. no planeshift in Darksun unless you want to visit, ahm, I meant to say die on one of the elemental planes :p.
 


5ekyu

Hero
I think they tried to do that, but didn't make clear enough how broad of a latitude the GM should be allowed to have - probably because it's a bit weird to write a spell and then tell the player that the result of his spell is whatever the DM wants it to be. But in any event, "rulings not rules" should never be an excuse for poorly written rules.



When people say things like this it becomes immediately clear that they are not having a discussion with me. Neither I nor the OP had any problem whatsoever with the movement that the spell allowed. When you answer with words like this, you might as well write, "Eff U" as a reply because that's precisely how polite you are being.

So again, it's not the movement that the spell allows that is the problem. Obviously, you want to have a spell that allows movement between the planes, and planeshift provides for that. Great

Ok so, the reason I quoted you was to address how I disagreed with you on the incoherent, etc. That early ruling not rules.

The second part was me adding my own views on the spell and what it means in the context of the campaign. Last time I checked that is permitted round here - even, amazingly, if it disagrees with your viewpoint.

So, yes, in azway, that part of my post was not "a discussion with you" - it was just me expressing my views more broadly. But that is a long long long long long way from it being am eff you.

To me there is a huge gulf between expressing an opinion that agrees and expressing an eff you. If not to you, well, not my problem.
 

Celebrim

Legend
By "used to" drop you in a random place do you mean 3e? Because in 1e you arrive right where you want to, if you know where you're going; and that's the bit that causes headaches: a party can be deep in a dungeon, planeshift home for the weekend, then planeshift back to precisely where they came from. All it takes is two castings for each trip.

Needless to say, I had to rein that in. :)

Yeah, I haven't looked at the 1e version of the spell in some time, but if it is pin point precise, then yes, you'd need to reign that in.
 

Celebrim

Legend
What is not accurate in your post is that planeshift is the first encounter / method /means for PCs to encounter other planes. I sent my party three or four times to some ravenloft enclave during their ongoing greyhawk campaign already, with none of them having planeshift as a spell.

Yes, but I wasn't talking about PC's encountering other planes. I was talking about PCs controlling their ability to go to other planes. If you "sent them" some place, that isn't the players with the power to transport themselves to other planes. That's you using your powers of fiat over the setting to arrange for adventures in other planes.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Ok so, the reason I quoted you was to address how I disagreed with you on the incoherent, etc. That early ruling not rules.

Yes, and as I said, I get that. But, I still insist that having rule zero does not give you a pass to write poorly thought out or unclear rules. I also note that the section of the spell description that calls out DM fiat over how the spell works is an unusual inclusion in a spell, since most spells just describe how they work. The fact that they need to include a section specifically calling out "rulings not rules" in the midst of a rule is itself a bit of warning bell that something is going on here. My objection is that they've written a spell that says it works one way, but then upon realizing that working in that manner is problematic, the designer called out DM fiat to override how he had just written the spell to work. And, to add insult to injury, the examples he gives of DM fiat are not broad enough to cover all the problems that could result from the spell - problems the designer at least partially foresaw or they wouldn't have called out the fiat exceptions.

In particular, the designer does not call out that if the party has no knowledge of the location, they are very unlikely to arrive anywhere near where they want to go. This is particularly odd since every other spell when converted from earlier editions to 5e added this restriction on magical travel, and even powerful divination spells like 'Find the Path' were nerfed to prevent using the spell to circumvent this requirement. So it very much seems like an oversight to go the other way and make Planeshift far more accurate in this situation than it was in prior editions.

The second part was me adding my own views on the spell and what it means in the context of the campaign. Last time I checked that is permitted round here - even, amazingly, if it disagrees with your viewpoint.

Absolutely. And if that part of your post was not directed at me, then I apologize. However, in the context of the discussion and in the context of you quoting at me, it did very much appear directed at me. And the problem I have with directing such statements at me is that they have absolutely nothing to do with my opinion.

As for your opinion, the problem I have with suggesting that the campaign has reached a stage at 13th level where the party ought to be able to without acquiring knowledge of a location travel there instantly and be close, is that it's at about 13th level that I'd expect a GM to need the planes to provide challenges and Planeshift is the first real spell that empowers a party to go to other planes. So you are essentially saying that the first time the concept is introduced, that not only should it empower travel to other planes but it also and at the same time should deprecate travel and deprecate research.

And even if you feel that it should, it doesn't address the incoherence argument I make above.

To give an example of why your explanation feels weak to me, suppose the 5e had a spell 'we all fly' that allowed wingless high maneuverability flight, had a duration of 24 hours, didn't require concentration, allowed up to 8 targets, and was 1st level. Would you be OK addressing complaints about the impact this had on scenario design with respect to classes with and without access to a caster that could cast 'we all fly', by saying, "Well, clearly by the level this spell becomes available pit traps are no longer intended to be a problem?" But given the level that it becomes available, when would pit traps be intended to be a problem? Planeshift is the first real player initiated mass planar travel that comes on line, and it's better at dealing with lack of accurate knowledge than it's 9th level counter part gate. That doesn't strike you as a wierd?

It's all well and good to say that 13th level parties are no longer challenged by providing light in a dungeon, feeding themselves, finding shelter, and protecting themselves from normal climate extremes, and wild animals because you've had some rather lengthy part of the campaign to feature challenges like that. But, that's not equivalent to what is going on here.

To me there is a huge gulf between expressing an opinion that agrees and expressing an eff you. If not to you, well, not my problem.

Ordered from least insulting to most insulting, I would rank the following:

3) "FU"
2) "You SOB"
1) Setting up a strawman, going off on a tangent, and using your strawman to slander me.

I could really care less about trigger words and insults. Those don't really hurt me, and if someone really wants to hurt me that is not how they go about it.
 
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generic

On that metempsychosis tweak
3) "FU"
2) "You SOB"
1) Setting up a strawman, going off on a tangent, and using your strawman to slander me.

I could really care less about trigger words and insults. Those don't really hurt me, and if someone really wants to hurt me that is not how they go about it.
Yes, but the problem is, that is clearly not what the poster was doing. Perhaps they misunderstood you, but they are clearly not explicitly trying to demonize your arguments.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Now that one is super cool, great logic conclusion which is somehow obvious, but wouldn't it eventually be the place of the reception (which does not necessarily have to be the place of the act) ? Since technically mother's womb is not actually outer plane or is it :p ?
Until you're born you're still part of the mother; actual birth is when you-as-you first arrive on the Prime Material. Otherwise a pregnant female would count as two (or more, if twins etc.) people for the purposes of things like plane-shift passenger limits, and I didn't want that.

I gave this some thought quite a while back, side-along with wondering if a pregnant female dies and is then revived, what happens to the fetus; and a bunch of similar pregnancy-related questions - all relevant at the time as one (or two?) then-current PCs was pregnant.

EDIT to add: come to think of it, in each of my three major campaigns there's been at least one PC have a baby; and each time a) the father was another PC and b) the conception and birth both took place during those PCs' played careers.
 
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