Limiting a Spell Component Pouch

[Jester David]

(also posting this on the Paizo boards)

The Spell component pouch is kinda a 5gp tax on the wizard, but I think it adds a lot of flavour. But there's no listing of the contents and no number of uses. The wizard buys it once at 1st level and they don't ever need to restock-up on bat guano or pork fat again.

I was thinking of adding a limit to the number of times a single pouch can be used. Tracking individual components seems the way of madness, so a cap on uses (like a healing kit) seems to be the idea way.

Off the top of my head let's say 50 uses for 10 uses per gp with each spell with a material component using 1 user per spell level.
Or would it be better to just go with something like 25 uses (5/gp) with no spell variation.

And, of course, Knowledge (nature) or (arcana) might be able to restore a couple uses from a corpse or when exploring the wilderness.

Thoughts?

 

[Elothan]

It might just be me, but I would find that an overdoing of tracking stuff.
Dont get me wrong.. I make my players track arrows and rations while in the dungeon, but spell components are already tracked for the most expensive ones, but for mundane things like batdropping etc, it would be easy for the wizard to pick something in the dungeon, or get a piece of fat of the rations or somesuch.

But if your groups like it, by all means, go ahead

 

[delericho]

(also posting this on the Paizo boards)

The Spell component pouch is kinda a 5gp tax on the wizard, but I think it adds a lot of flavour. But there's no listing of the contents and no number of uses. The wizard buys it once at 1st level and they don't ever need to restock-up on bat guano or pork fat again.

I was thinking of adding a limit to the number of times a single pouch can be used. Tracking individual components seems the way of madness, so a cap on uses (like a healing kit) seems to be the idea way.

Off the top of my head let's say 50 uses for 10 uses per gp with each spell with a material component using 1 user per spell level.
Or would it be better to just go with something like 25 uses (5/gp) with no spell variation.

And, of course, Knowledge (nature) or (arcana) might be able to restore a couple uses from a corpse or when exploring the wilderness.

Thoughts?

Honestly? I agree with Elothan - it's almost certainly more trouble than it's worth. My guess is that the moment you introduced something like this, the Wizard would respond by buying a dozen SCPs and having the Fighter carry them for him.

May I suggest a couple of things:

Firstly, you might well want to rule that an SCP is good for "one adventure" or even "one level" (depending on how kind you want to be). This seems a reasonable compromise - the Wizard can be assumed to be using up components, or to require new components when he learns new spells, and so must periodically refresh his SCP.

However, instead I'm inclined to think that even that probably isn't worth bothering with - it's 5gp, and by the end of even the first adventure the Wizard is likely to have plenty of money available.

But what I'd actually consider is this: very occasionally, have the PC Wizard lose access to his SCP. Perhaps the group get captured, and his captors destroy his pouch rather than leaving it with the rest of the party's gear. Perhaps he rolls a '1' on a save vs some spell, and his SCP is the item destroyed. Or whatever.

And then, for a short while, the PC has to get creative in how to find components - yes, he has to go grubbing around in caves for bat guano; yes, he has to scrounge up some sand for his sleep spell; yes, he primarily has to rely on spells which don't require components. But only ever do this for a short time, because it will quickly cease to be fun - as soon as the PC has a chance to visit a town and buy a new SCP (or can spend a few days foraging to restock), the player gets to write "Spell Component Pouch" on the character sheet, and things to back to normal.

Fundamentally, I agree that the 5gp 'tax' of an SCP really isn't very interesting, and that it is potentially interesting if the PC has to manage without. But it really does need to be handled sparingly, or the players will respond with an extreme over-reaction.

 

[N'raac]

To me, the purpose of a 5gp SCP was to remove exactly this sort of mundane bookkeeping. However, I also consider it appropriate to knock some gold off every so often for routine maintenance, equipment replacement and living expenses, so I'd include replenishment and replacement in that cost.

Characters also start with one set of clothes. How often do most players knock some gold off to replace those clothes?

 

[Matthias]

In practice, for every spell that an SCP satisfies the material component requirement of, the SCP just changes the spell to one needing a universal material focus.

I think life would be much simpler if we changed the "Spell Component Pouch" into a "Spell Focus Pouch" and rewrote every spell so that spells with material components worth less than ten gp got switched over to having material foci instead.

 

[delericho]

In practice, for every spell that an SCP satisfies the material component requirement of, the SCP just changes the spell to one needing a universal material focus.

I think life would be much simpler if we changed the "Spell Component Pouch" into a "Spell Focus Pouch" and rewrote every spell so that spells with material components worth less than ten gp got switched over to having material foci instead.

This is very true.

Heck, change the Spell Component Pouch to a Wand, and you've got an instant Harry Potter-esque wizard.

 

[Adimus]

I agree with what others say, that the 5 gp charge is chump-change after the first adventure, but I think I may see the need you have to address it, if only as an attempt to get the player to pay attention to the minutia of things like spell components.

That being said, there are other sneaky ways to go about it without a 'tax'.
I usually assume a wizard has any mundane component at his disposal (unless his equipment is taken of course), but I sometimes consider some of the wizard's 'recovery time' as collecting component time, foraging or shopping, and glean over such details to add role-playing flavor.

I'm also a big fan of RP XP awards, and I'm a sucker for wizards that describe their spell effects or the plethora of alien things they carry in their backpacks to the group.

But what I'd actually consider is this: very occasionally, have the PC Wizard lose access to his SCP. Perhaps the group get captured, and his captors destroy his pouch rather than leaving it with the rest of the party's gear. Perhaps he rolls a '1' on a save vs some spell, and his SCP is the item destroyed. Or whatever.

And then, for a short while, the PC has to get creative in how to find components - yes, he has to go grubbing around in caves for bat guano; yes, he has to scrounge up some sand for his sleep spell; yes, he primarily has to rely on spells which don't require components. But only ever do this for a short time, because it will quickly cease to be fun - as soon as the PC has a chance to visit a town and buy a new SCP (or can spend a few days foraging to restock), the player gets to write "Spell Component Pouch" on the character sheet, and things to back to normal.

This is perfect. I actually used this shtick just a few months back. It works out great, and forces a wizard to think about the complexity of the work he does and reminds him of the coolness of being all wizardy, as most players who play ignore components unless they have a cost because they can just buy the all-powerful pouch.

 

[Jester David]

It's more to get people thinking about their spells. I'm using it to set the tone and establish magic is different. You don't just cast a spell, you need extra bits and components.

My last game I didn't track spell components, ammunition, or food. But it was a much more heroic fantasy game. This campaign (Ravenloft) is going to be much more low-magic with the common folk frightened of magic.

I want the players wondering "can I buy spell components in town?" Having to think about just how they're asking for eye of newt and frogsbreath at the local greengrocer. Being a little worried about what the town thinks about his shopping.

Eventually, when the spellcasters are more respected and know where to go (no questions asked) this goes away. I don't want it to be a continual beat stick for the entire campaign, just something to establish tone at the very beginning for the first couple levels.

Later on, its the kind of thing that's interesting to throw at a party. Like during a long journey between cities where they can't resupply. Or the shipwreck situation where every arrow (and in this case spell component) is precious.


The big question is how many spells should be castable for the 5gp? I don't want it to be too annoyingly expensive or vanish too quickly, but I also don't want it never to come up.

Looking at arrows for the baseline, you can get 20 arrows for a gp or 100 attacks for the 5gp of a spell component pouch. But archers quickly get multiple attacks so at fifth level the 5gp is only 30 or so attacks. That might compare with more advanced components consuming more uses of the pouch.
But spells have a lot more bang than just an arrow, so I could justifiably reduce the number, which also makes counting a little easier.

 

[billd91]

I would suggest looking at periodic upkeep costs for the PCs and then just tack the spell component pouch onto that as well. Check out the Cost of Living section in the Core Rulebook on page 405. If you start requiring the PCs to pay that, then requiring a periodic spell component pouch repurchase is easy.

 

[Matthias]

You could require a caster to fork out a little extra money every time they gain a new level of spells. This would likely make Eschew Materials much more valuable.


Spell Component Pouch - This item exists in multiple versions specific to each spellcasting class. A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for casting for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine foci, and foci that wouldn't fit in a pouch. A given pouch contains all the components needed to cast 0-level and 1st-level spells for its associated class.



Spell Component Upgrade - Whenever a spellcaster gains a new spell level, she must obtain the necessary material components to cast those spells of the new level. To that end, she must purchase an upgrade to her spell components. These spell component upgrades have a cost equal to the user's caster level X spell level X 5 gp and are also class-specific. For example, a 5th-level wizard gains 3rd-level wizard spells and will therefore need a pouch upgrade for 3rd-level wizard spells. Weight: 0.5 lb. (2nd-6th level upgrades) or 1 lb. (7th-9th level upgrades).


Here's the costs of the upgrades according to the above formula, followed by the expected PC wealth of the same level.

Cleric, Druid, Wizard, & Witch spells
2nd-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 30 gp (3k)
3rd-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 75 gp (10.5k)
4th-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 140 gp (23.5k)
5th-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 225 gp (46k)
6th-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 330 gp (82k)
7th-level upgrade (1 lb.): 455 gp (140k)
8th-level upgrade (1 lb.): 600 gp (240k)
9th-level upgrade (1 lb.): 765 gp (410k)

Sorcerer & Oracle spells
2nd-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 40 gp (6k)
3rd-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 90 gp (16k)
4th-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 160 gp (33k)
5th-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 250 gp (62k)
6th-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 360 gp (108k)
7th-level upgrade (1 lb.): 490 gp (185k)
8th-level upgrade (1 lb.): 640 gp (240k)
9th-level upgrade (1 lb.): 810 gp (530k)

Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, and Summoner spells
2nd-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 40 gp (6k)
3rd-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 105 gp (23.5k)
4th-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 200 gp (62k)
5th-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 325 gp (140k)
6th-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 480 gp (315k)

Antipaladin, Paladin, and Ranger spells
2nd-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 40 gp (6k)
3rd-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 105 gp (23.5k)
4th-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 200 gp (62k)

Adept spells
2nd-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 40 gp (1,650)*
3rd-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 120 gp (6,000)*
4th-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 240 gp (16,350)*
5th-level upgrade (0.5 lb.): 400 gp (45,000)*


*NPC wealth by level (basic)