Limiting a Spell Component Pouch

[jefgorbach]

Its a fine idea ... provided the fighters/etc likewise track how much damage their armor/weapons receive over time, reducing their corresponding effectiveness accordingly if not maintained in a similar fashion??

Further, I foresee such an annoying system quickly offset by routine use of the Mending spell with a variant quickly researched to similarly replenish the SCB; effectively changing the fight-then-rest-8hrs-paradigm to a fight-then-camp-for-#-days-paradigm to reset everyone's gear.

 

[delericho]

It's more to get people thinking about their spells. I'm using it to set the tone and establish magic is different. You don't just cast a spell, you need extra bits and components.

Ah, now if that's your goal, I have an alternate suggestion:

Forget about limiting the Spell Component Pouch, or requiring the player to keep track of charges, or anything like that. Also, forget about the material components listed in the various spell descriptions (except for costly components and focuses).

Instead, every spell requires a material component of some description, but that component can be anything vaguely related to the spell - you can cast web with a bit of spider silk, or a bit of glue, or a preserved spider, or even some dead flies harvested from a spider's web. It doesn't really matter what, but it must be something.

So, the PC Wizard has his Spell Component Pouch, and that's fine. But, when he casts his spells, the player needs to specify (as part of the action) what sort of component he uses. (You probably don't want to insist on the player declaring a component every time, because that would quickly get tedious. But maybe a couple of times per session would be good?)

The other suggestion I would make would be to dig out the "Power Components" rules - I think these first appeared in Dragon, and may have been repeated in "Unearthed Arcana". (Sorry, I can't give a more exact reference than that.) The idea here is that if the Wizard casts a spell with a specific "power component" he gets some bonus to the casting. So, if he casts sleep, but instead of using a handful of sand instead uses a single pea taken from the matress of a princess, he affects an additional hit die of creatures.

By providing a modest bonus for using specific (but not hard-to-get or overly-expensive) components, you encourage the PCs to at least consider it, and thus give more thought to their spell components. Of course, it does mean coming up with a bunch of power components and their effects... but my recommendation here is to cheat - allow only Wizards and Sorcerers to use them, and only come up with the components for those spells that they actually know!

 

[N'raac]

It's more to get people thinking about their spells. I'm using it to set the tone and establish magic is different. You don't just cast a spell, you need extra bits and components.

My last game I didn't track spell components, ammunition, or food. But it was a much more heroic fantasy game. This campaign (Ravenloft) is going to be much more low-magic with the common folk frightened of magic.

Its a fine idea ... provided the fighters/etc likewise track how much damage their armor/weapons receive over time, reducing their corresponding effectiveness accordingly if not maintained in a similar fashion??

A very relevant point. Really, the thrust of removing the simple "you have a spell component pouch" to take care of much of the material component issue is similar to assuming weapon and armor maintenance occurs in the background. If we want the mundane maintenance of the adventurers' powers to be more actively reflected in the game, then make the arcanists track the contents of their spell component pouches. But also make the warriors track wear & tear on their weapons and armor, and ensure that the Divine characters don't only pray to restore their spells - why aren't they out there preaching, converting the heathen, and carrying out mundane actions consistent with their faith?

Further, I foresee such an annoying system quickly offset by routine use of the Mending spell with a variant quickly researched to similarly replenish the SCB; effectively changing the fight-then-rest-8hrs-paradigm to a fight-then-camp-for-#-days-paradigm to reset everyone's gear.

Spells used to remove the mundane hassles seem a reasonable response. Eschew Materials was mentioned upthread. It solves the problem. It also seems likely to become perceived by players as a Feat Tax imposed on their Wizard.

Looking at arrows for the baseline, you can get 20 arrows for a gp or 100 attacks for the 5gp of a spell component pouch. But archers quickly get multiple attacks so at fifth level the 5gp is only 30 or so attacks. That might compare with more advanced components consuming more uses of the pouch.

But spells have a lot more bang than just an arrow, so I could justifiably reduce the number, which also makes counting a little easier.

But then, arrows are not the warrior's most significant class feature by far, are they?

On the topic of arrows, expect the players to push some of the SCP tracking back on the GM, with each and every arcane spellcaster opponent searched, followed by "what does he have in his spell component pouch"? Maybe not so bad if you're taking the approach that it can be used to cast X spells, although even that does mean you need to establish how much is in there at the start - maybe the PC's run him out of components in mid-battle. Surely the enemy carries more components than he needs to just cast today's spells.

If you decide to set tracking on a component by component basis, now you get to decide how much bat guano, spider webs, etc. each and every enemy wizard happens to be dragging along. Better cover everything that's in their spell book!

 

[Jester David]

You could require a caster to fork out a little extra money every time they gain a new level of spells. This would likely make Eschew Materials much more valuable.

The idea of "masterwork spell pouches" is cool, but I don't want this to be continual, regular bookkeeping. When the finances begin to flow it'd be nice to have this subsumed by a simple "upkeep" fee. Eventually. Much like after a few levels it's just easier to stop tracking arrows.

Its a fine idea ... provided the fighters/etc likewise track how much damage their armor/weapons receive over time, reducing their corresponding effectiveness accordingly if not maintained in a similar fashion??

The problem with tracking damage to armour and weapons is such a system would not mesh well with sunder, making that a more powerful option.
I've thought about an armour damaging system, but like many wound systems it penalizes players for not stopping to rest and repair: the longer they go the weaker they get and boss fights become disproportionation more challenging as the mooks have already lowered AC and reduced damage.

The thing with tracking spell component use is that it doesn't reduce effectiveness. As long as they're prepared and bought ahead of time, they're effective.

Further, I foresee such an annoying system quickly offset by routine use of the Mending spell with a variant quickly researched to similarly replenish the SCB; effectively changing the fight-then-rest-8hrs-paradigm to a fight-then-camp-for-#-days-paradigm to reset everyone's gear.

Mending? I don't think that would refill anyone's spell component pouch any more than it would refill the ranger's quiver.

 

[N'raac]

Cost of Living should make the issue go away fairly quickly. You don't need too high a standard of living to be able to locate bat guano or spider webs. If anything the higher levels might make them tougher to find (didn't that balsted maid service leave ANY cobwebs?)

The problem with tracking damage to armour and weapons is such a system would not mesh well with sunder, making that a more powerful option.

IME, Sunder doesn't see a lot of use. Maybe making it more powerful is a feature rather than a flaw.

I've thought about an armour damaging system, but like many wound systems it penalizes players for not stopping to rest and repair: the longer they go the weaker they get and boss fights become disproportionation more challenging as the mooks have already lowered AC and reduced damage.

The thing with tracking spell component use is that it doesn't reduce effectiveness. As long as they're prepared and bought ahead of time, they're effective.

Well, you can always pack an extra suit of armor and some spare weapons too! If the goal is to make the wizard spend more gold, impose a "spell tax" in whatever form you choose. But recognize that it is a spell tax. At some point, the players will simply start taking Eschew Materials at L1 and turn this into a Feat Tax for wizards instead.

 

[Jester David]

If the goal is to make the wizard spend more gold, impose a "spell tax" in whatever form you choose. But recognize that it is a spell tax. At some point, the players will simply start taking Eschew Materials at L1 and turn this into a Feat Tax for wizards instead.

No, as stated, the goal was to make spellcasters think about where and how they're asking for components in a land afraid of magic.
And to potentially have components be able to run out in remote areas (or require checks) so casters think about components.

I want the item to be thought about and remembered instead if being a tax on starting gold and extra weight.

Plus, spell components become a cheap reward. And, as mentioned earlier, I can slip in special components that do extra things.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The price becomes irrelevant very quickly, I see no point in elaborating on it.

Personally, I have never worried about components so long as they are routine items and it's reasonable for the caster to have them.

Thus I only care about expensive/hard to obtain stuff or in the very rare case that a caster is lacking their gear.

 

[Jester David]

I do enjoy how I asked a simple question (how many uses should there be in a spell component pouch?) and all I got was an answer was "don't do that", "the price is soon irrelevant", and the like.

Thank you, but I'm kinda going to do it anyway. Only now I have to ballpark the number uses myself without a second opinion or deeper thought.

Of course, since I'm doing a low magic game I'm also removing most of the boring magic items (anything with a flat +#) and baking that in to advancement.
With that gear gone and the bonuses inherent, it's amazing how little gold you really need to give out. Since you don't need to be awarding thousands of gp so the character can get that magic sword.

 

[Matthias]

Another possibility is to drop the Spell Component Pouch entirely, and allow a caster to carry a bunch of reusable material foci for every spell that is listed as needing some material component of trivial cost. Drop Eschew Materials as a feat since it then becomes automatic.

A material focus can either be represent a subschool (such as Healing), a school (if no subschool exists, such as in Abjuration) or any one subtype (such as Mind-Affecting). For example, a spell with the descriptors Necromancy, Evil, and Mind-Affecting could be cast using a material focus dedicated to any those three descriptors.

Spells that already indicate a spell-specific material focus, or which do not require a material component or focus of any kind would not work any differently than they do now.

Then, for those spell that require a trivial material component, the spellcaster could provide one anyway in addition to a material focus, and gain a +1 to his spell DC. I wouldn't let this be an automatic thing, but introduce a Power Component feat that would enable the caster to boost his spell in this way. And the GM would need to have the player go out and accumulate these bonus components manually (read: side quest, adventuring plot hook)

 

[N'raac]

I do enjoy how I asked a simple question (how many uses should there be in a spell component pouch?) and all I got was an answer was "don't do that", "the price is soon irrelevant", and the like.

The answer to your specific question, for many posters, appears to be "infinite".

Let us assume you decide the pouch holds 50 "uses" (10 uses per 1 gp). How do you then explain to the wizard's player that, since he has cast Sleep 50 times, he cannot cast his Light spell? By using up his fine sand, he has somehow run out of fireflies? There's a loss of verisimilitude here.

And why must the pouch be replenished by cash outlays? The character is somehow incapable of going out at night to catch fireflies, or gathering fine sand or rose petals? He has to engage others to do these things for him?

It seems that, in trying to engage the caster in addressing his material components, you risk shattering suspension of disbelief (how DOES that little pouch carry enough components to cast every 0 level spell plus all those 1st level spells - even at the start of his career - a dozen or so times? What keeps all those fireflies alive in there so they can be used to cast Light every ten minutes? I have to BUY a drop of sweat to cast Touch of Fatigue??? Very few components for low level spells (at least from the core rules) seem all that difficult to come by. The more unusual/crafted ones are Focuses, so you don't need to replace it.

I think 5gp pays for the pouch itself - the spellcaster gathers up the components to fill it. Just like fighters are assumed to spend down time maintaining weapons and armor, the spellcasters maintain their spell pouches and do spell research. A standard belt pouch costs 1 GP, but this one must be specially made to segregate those various components for easy retrieval in the course of casting the spells. How many different components does a high level wizard pack around in it?

Especially where magic is scarce and feared, it seems like the guy selling live fireflies, crickets and grasshopper legs is the one who will attract undue attention.