Line of Sight & Line of Effect, tied at the hip or not?

[Minifig]

Here it is, a separate thread for one of the bigger debates we have going on in the Magic Missile thread.

Does Line of Effect, LoE, need to be tied to Line of Sight, LoS, to effect the target?


I argue yes for ranged attacks because if you cannot see it, you won't know where to aim to hit it.

It's attacking ONE square, unless it's a burst attack.. even then you don't know if it'll land exactly where you aimed because you're not able to see where your looking and therefore you cannot aim to specifically point at that point and say "hit right there and damage that area and that area specifically!" or "hit right there and damage that area and around that area in a radius of x yards specifically!".

 

[Saagael]

In that thread there have been several posts pointing you to direct quotes in the PHB, all of which say that you can attack something without seeing it.

Blindess means all targets have total concealment.

Total concealment means you have a -5 penalty to hit that target.

That is ALL. There is no rule on blindness means you can't attack a target. There is no rule that says Line of Sight is needed to attack a target. You're inferring what the rules mean when taking terminology outside the context of the game.

 

[havoclad]

Line of Sight and Line of Effect do not have any dependency on each other.

Line of Sight is defined on pg 106 of the Rule Compendium, Line of Effect on p107. Neither references the other in its definition.

Couple examples to help you see the difference.

2 critters separated by a transparent wall of force. They have Line of Sight to each other, but not Line of Effect. (IE - most powers *cannot* be used against each other.)

2 critters in complete darkness with no terrain between them. They have Line of Effect to each other, but not Line of Sight. (IE - most powers *can* be used against each other.)

I would note that the first sentence of the definition of Line of Sight says "Typically the user of a power doesn't have to be able to see the target of a power"

In order to not be targeted a defender must be hidden. There is no direct correlation between hidden and line of sight either. Even then, the second creature can target the power on whichever square he thinks the first is in.

 

[Minifig]

Blindess means all targets have total concealment.

Total concealment means you have a -5 penalty to hit that target.

That is ALL.

----

Blindness:

You grant combat advantage.
You cannot see any target, (your targets have total concealment).
You take a -10 penalty to Perception checks.
You can't flank an enemy.

Concealment
-2 Penalty on attacks (-5 for total concealment); melee and ranged attacks only.
Concealment is lightly obscured or heavily obscured and adjacent.
Total concealment is total obscurement/darkness or heavily obscured nonadjacent.

Directly from my Reference sheet.

So, you have to Perceive something to hit it.

Because of this you get the -10 Perception check because your blind, plus with the concealment, you get the -5 because blindness on the character in question grants a -5 penalty, it's a grand total of -15 to your attacks.

 

[malraux]

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Directly from my Reference sheet.

So, you have to Perceive something to hit it.

Because of this you get the -10 Perception check because your blind, plus with the concealment, you get the -5 because blindness on the character in question grants a -5 penalty, it's a grand total of -15 to your attacks.

-10 to perception checks and -5 to attacks. Two separate things.

 

[Minifig]

-10 to perception checks and -5 to attacks. Two separate things.

True, thank you for correcting me.. I've got a lot of math going on in my head because I'm balancing both threads.

 

[Saagael]

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Directly from my Reference sheet.

So, you have to Perceive something to hit it.

Because of this you get the -10 Perception check because your blind, plus with the concealment, you get the -5 because blindness on the character in question grants a -5 penalty, it's a grand total of -15 to your attacks.

My mistake, I only referenced the relevant parts of the blindness condition.

Combat advantage: irrelevant
Flanking: irrelevant
Perception: irrelevant (has nothing to do with attacks, merely the act of using perception to find a stealthed target. Total concealment does not equal stealth)

My point stands: total concealment only means you have a -5 to attack a target. It does not mean that you cannot know where they are, or perceive them. You can still hear, touch, and smell them.

 

[havoclad]

----
So, you have to Perceive something to hit it.

This is not true. If a target has total concealment, the attacker suffers a -5 to hit penalty. There is no need to Perceive the target (in the general case. Some powers specify only targets you can see).

 

[Maddach Urquhart]

One way to look at it is to think about blindness in real world terms. Being "blind" doesn't necessarily mean you see in total darkness, or in complete absence of any color or motion.

Being blind most often means your vision is impaired to a point where you can't function nearly as well as someone who is not blinded. You might be able to see general shapes and colors, but you can't make out details.

In D&D terms, you can easily look at it the same way. When you're blinded by an attack or effect in combat, it doesn't necessarily mean you can't see anything - between that and the character being able to reference what they could see before being blinded, I think the total concealment rule is fair and justified.

 

[Minifig]

It says right in the PH that the Magic Missile is affected by the attack roll to see if you hit or miss, go to page 274, to see the description of ATTACK ROLL:

Roll 1D20, add the following: The Base Attack Bonus- Situational Attack Modifers (eg: Conditions and what not) Page 279 (when it's actually 277 for conditions) - Bonuses and penalties.

Goto Page 277.. What's on that page?

Blinded.


It is affected!