D&D 3E/3.5 Litany of 3.5 rules questions

Erithtotl said:
My main concern here would be (and this is something that happend), is the horse makes a double move, then the passenger, who has a later initiative, gets off the horse and takes another double move, thus essentially being able to make two moves in one round, which is clearly not correct.

Dismounting is a move action I think, so he should be able to dismount and then take a single move. Which is not game-breaking.

Typically a rider and a mount share initiative; I would extend this to passengers, too. If the passenger wants to wait until after the mount has taken its full turn, I'd call it a ready action, so his initiative shifts to just after the horse and all he can do is dismount this turn.
 

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Dismounting as a free action is a DC 20 ride check, with no drawbacks if it fails. Thus a pretty good rider could take 10 and do this automatically. It's not so much gamebreaking but rather it exists in contradiction to the game model. If a horse takes a double move it is assumed that all 6 seconds of the round are taken moving. The passenger also is on the horse for all 6 seconds of that time. The passenger taking a double move also takes 6 seconds, resulting in the passenger essentially getting 12 seconds of activity for a single round.
 


Yeah I realized that afterwards. Reguardless, the scenario I described is still quite plausable. I have a 4th level PC in my game that has a +12 in Ride, so he could do it more often than not.
 


Erithtotl said:
Here's a list of things that came up in my last session and I'm wondering what the official call is on them:

1) A player gets knocked unconcious while on a horse (that wasn't moving that turn). How do you determine if he falls off? Also, if the horse is an animal companion, would that make a difference?

2) When a player is healed up from unconciousness, where does he go in the intitative order.

3) Can a player 'tumble' when prone? If I've got a monk whose on the ground, it seems like there should be some way they can attempt to 'tumble' out of danger without having to 'get up' and invoke an attack of opportunity.

4) Would a paralyzed or sleeping character take more damage from falling then an alert character?

Sorry if these have all been answered before. Is there a centralized FAQ for rules somewhere that answers questions like these?

Edit: Here are a couple more:

5) If you're fighting from a warhorse, who is attacking, can you fire a bow at the same time? Would this invoke an attack of opportunity on you from the person fighting the horse? Would that attack go against the horse or you?

6) Could a horse fight with more than one rider on its back?

7) If someone is a passenger on a horse, and the horse moves on the rider's initiative, can the passenger the perform his own turn afterwards, or is it somehow 'integrated' with that of the horse/rider?

1. I'd probably have the horse make a reflex save DC 10 or something. As an animal companion it would want to keep the player in the saddle, and it shouldn't be too hard to do so. Maybe even like DC 8 or 5.

2. You are supposed to keep their original initiative, though I usually assign them the initiative of when they become conscious (the following round). It seems to make more sense.

3. By the book, I think they'd simply be able to do so as normal. Seems to me they should take the -4 penalty for being prone that they do on attacks, etc.

4. No. But they, of course, wouldn't be offered a tumble check to negate the first 10 feet of the fall, and monks wouldn't be able to use their slide down wall ability, etc. If you want real-world validation for this, what little we understand about the effects of landing after a great fall seems to tell us that you are almost as likely to avoid injury by being limp (unconscious) as you are TRYING to avoid injury.

5. I don't know. The D&D rules for mounted combat are absurd and I do not use them. I personally treat mounted and mounter as seperate creatures for initiative, etc.

6. I don't see why not. See the rules for carrying capacity, though.

7. I'm going back to my statement of absurd combat rules. Though I think the two are treated as one (the movement of the horse therefore can come before or after [but not both] the attack by the rider). It's as if the mount simply replaces the speed of the rider.
 

smetzger said:
Warning House Rule...
For falling damage I use d20 for every 10 ft, then I roll 1d6 and divide the sum of the d20s by the d6. The average is about the same as 1d6 per 10ft, but there is a chance of taking no damage and a chance of taking alot of damage.

Thats...
Interesting.

I think I'm going to have to use that. Do you still count the first 10 feet as subdual (nonlethal) damage?
 

Erithtotl said:
Here's a list of things that came up in my last session and I'm wondering what the official call is on them:

1) A player gets knocked unconcious while on a horse (that wasn't moving that turn). How do you determine if he falls off? Also, if the horse is an animal companion, would that make a difference?
He has a 50% chance to stay in the saddle if it is a normal saddle or a 75% chance if it is a military saddle. See p 157 PHB.

2) When a player is healed up from unconciousness, where does he go in the intitative order.
The player keeps his origional inititative, if that means that he looses actions then he looses actions. The only way to change your intitative count is to use the delay or ready Special Initiative Actions and in order to do that you must be conscious and able to take an action on your turn. See p 160 PHB

3) Can a player 'tumble' when prone? If I've got a monk whose on the ground, it seems like there should be some way they can attempt to 'tumble' out of danger without having to 'get up' and invoke an attack of opportunity.
Yes, a character can tumble one half his speed as part of normal movement without provoking an AoO for a DC 15 tumble check or can tumble his full speed without provoking an AoO for a DC 25 tumble check (see Accelerated Tumbling p 84 PHB). A player can crawl on the ground 5' as a move action which draws an AoO. (see crawling p 142 PHB) Since you cannot move one half of 5' in the grid system you can then tumble 5' on the ground without provoking an AoO as a move action with a DC 25 tumble check. That then leaves you a move action to stand up (assuming the opponent doesnt' have reach. A common house rule is that a DC 35 tumble check will allow you to stand up as a free action that does not provoke an AoO but that is not RAW.

4) Would a paralyzed or sleeping character take more damage from falling then an alert character?
No he takes exactly the same ammount of dammage. However, note that a conscious character who is able to take actions can, as a response to falling, make a DC 15 tumble check to treat a fall as if it were 10 feet shorter, see p 84 PHB. In addition, a characer who elects to jump (as opposed to falling) can also make a DC 15 jump check to treat the fall as if it were another 10 feet shorter, see p 77 PHB.

Sorry if these have all been answered before. Is there a centralized FAQ for rules somewhere that answers questions like these?
Why yes, yes there is:
errata: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a
FAQ: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a


5) If you're fighting from a warhorse, who is attacking, can you fire a bow at the same time? Would this invoke an attack of opportunity on you from the person fighting the horse? Would that attack go against the horse or you?
Yes you can. If your mount takes a double move you take a -4 penalty, if your mount is running (4x move) you take a -8 penalty. Since your question is "a warhorse, who is attacking" I will assume that you mean a war-trained mount (as opposed to a non-trained mount, which is different) whom you have used a DC 5 ride check (as a free action) to "guide with your knees" leaving both you hands free and a DC 10 ride check (as a free action) to "fight with warhorse" to direct the mount to either take a single move action and attack at the end of the move or take a full round attack while staying in place. Either way you can take a full round attack or a single attack and a move action of your own. If you directed the mount to move and attack you would fire while the mount is moving and are assumed to make all the shots from a point halfway through the move (for purposes of range penalties, etc) if anyone was threatening any space occupied by your mount at that point halfway through the move then you would indeed provoke an AoO. If you directed your mount to make a full round attack then you do not move at all this turn and you make all your shots from where your mount is standing, if anyone threatens any space occupied by your mount durring this round then you again provoke an AoO. See Ride skill p 80 PHB and Mounted Combat p 156 PHB.

6) Could a horse fight with more than one rider on its back?
AFAIK there is no direct answer to this question. The default assumption of the rules is that only one rider will be riding the mount in battle. My gut would say yes but add a -5 penalty to all the ride checks of the person controling the mount. Also make sure that the horse is not encumbered or else that will reduce its speed, see table 6-9 p 164 PHB for a horse's carrying load.

7) If someone is a passenger on a horse, and the horse moves on the rider's initiative, can the passenger the perform his own turn afterwards, or is it somehow 'integrated' with that of the horse/rider?
A horse and rider (by definition, the person directing the mount and making the related Ride checks) both act on the same initiative count, the mount using its action to move and the rider dividing up his action as dictated by the special mounted combat rules. See p 157 PHB. A passenger acts on his own initiative count. He may use the delay Special Initiative Action to change his initiative but he cannot act "simultaneously" as the horse/rider. Even if he changes his initiative count to be the same as the horse/rider he must still take his entire turn either before or after the horse/rider take their actions (thus he acts either where the horse was standing before the horse's turn or where it is standing after but not as some point in the middle of the move as was the case with the mounted archer who was also the rider in your earlier question). The passenger may also use the ready Special Initative Action to ready a standard action, this action can indeed interupt someone elses action so in that case the passanger can take a single standard action durring the horse/rider's turn. He can use his move action before taking the ready action however he likes but again he must make that move action at whatever point the mount is occupying before the mount's move. In this even the passanger's initative count becomes the same count as whomever triggered teh ready action and the passanger goes before that person. See p 160 PHB.

I think an example is in order for that last one. Say a horse has a rider (an archer) and a passanger (with a longsword). Every round the archer/rider directs the mount to take a double move past an opponent (who, for the sake of the example we will say does not move) while making a full-round attack with his bow. The archer gets to make his full-attack at a point halfway through his mount's move and all the movement and attacking happen on the same initative count (the rider's). The passanger has an initative count higher than the rider's and since the mount is not near the enemy either at the beginning or end of the mount's move there is nothing the passanger can do. Even if he delay's to the start of the rider's init he would still have to make his full turn before the horse and rider did anything. If he delay's until after the rider's init he would have to make his full turn after the horse and rider performed all their actions. However, the passanger may use his standard action to ready an action to "attack the enemy when we ride past". In this case he gets one attack (a standard action) and his init becomes the same as the rider's but he continues to act before the rider, thus he may repeat this action every round if he wishes. Note that a passenger must make ride checks to "guide with knees" if he wishes to use two hands, "stay in saddle" to avoid falling when he takes damage, "soft fall" if he falls and "fast mount or dismount" to get on or off but not to perform any other action nor should he be allowed to use any mounted feats since he is not controling the horse. Also note that a horse can only wear one saddle and whomever isn't ridding in the saddle takes a -5 penalty for ridding bareback.

Hope that helps.
 

Erithtotl said:
My main concern here would be (and this is something that happend), is the horse makes a double move, then the passenger, who has a later initiative, gets off the horse and takes another double move, thus essentially being able to make two moves in one round, which is clearly not correct.

A reasonable ruling to make is that, if a horse moves more than 5 feet and the rider wishes to perform an action that cannot be performed from horseback while the horse is moving (such as firing a bow or casting a spell) then he is limited to only a standard action. I say this is reasonable because on p 157 PHB it says:
If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack.
This seems to indicate that the designer's felt that a rider does indeed loose some of his action unless he is performing it all on horseback concurrent with the mount moving.

That would mean a rider could have his horse take a double move, fast dismount, and then move his speed as a standard action. Which sounds fine to me, you see it all the time in real life.
 

argo said:
Yes, a character can tumble one half his speed as part of normal movement without provoking an AoO for a DC 15 tumble check or can tumble his full speed without provoking an AoO for a DC 25 tumble check (see Accelerated Tumbling p 84 PHB). A player can crawl on the ground 5' as a move action which draws an AoO. (see crawling p 142 PHB) Since you cannot move one half of 5' in the grid system you can then tumble 5' on the ground without provoking an AoO as a move action with a DC 25 tumble check.

You're making the assumption that crawling qualifies as 'normal movement'.

I wouldn't agree with that.

In the recent RotG series on movement, Skip invented a DC20 check to tumble 5 feet while prone. He admitted that it wasn't RAW, it just 'felt about right'... and stated that the DC25 doesn't apply because crawling isn't 'normal movement'.

-Hyp.
 

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