Lizardfolk = ECL 4?!?!

[Archer]

Hobgoblins are now ECL +1 too. Sure, +2 to 2 stats is only worth 8k gcs if you figure the cheapest stat enhancing items but when everyone has +2 items those extra 2 stat points are worth 24k and when everyone has +4 items then they are worth 40k. When everyone has +6 items then they are worth 20k exp (not gold) for 4 wishes which is what level 20 is worth. When everyone has 5 wishes then the extra stat points are like having 4 epic character levels which puts you 3 levels ahead of everyone else.

You get to be immune to hold person and charm person and get some elemental resistances to boot which can come in very handy should you be engulfed in a gelatinous cube or get hit with a flash of flaming oil, which help you survive to higher levels. If you die you lose a whole level which is sort of like having an ECL.

If you travel to very hot or very cold areas you will be fine while the rest of your party is fatigued or exhaused from damage from the temperature.

When that SR19 item is practically worthless, the drow will still negate 40% of magic cast by a same level caster considering ECL.

That's why (some) ECL characters are good.

 

[Spatula]

Ogre Stats

Archer, I generally with your points, but the ogre's actual ability modifiers are +10 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, -4 INT, -4 CHA. Also, the Large and In Charge feat is from Sword & Fist and thus is extremely optional, so I don't think it should be used to calculate the viability of a monster race.

 

[Archer]

I was comparing the ogre to the closest ECL 0 creature which is a half-orc. They both have similar bonuses/penalties including dark vision and a near total lack of racial benefits.

I agree that if there was no Large and in charge feat it would probably drop the ECL of the ogre by 1 or 2.

Large and in charge is why I'm going for 5 levels of dragon disciple. Now there is a way to get the benefits of ECL without having ECL or wasted monster levels. You get all the benefits of being large and all the benefits of being a half dragon, such a bargain at only 10 class levels with no real class abilities. Its better to stop once you have enlargement at level 5 IMHO.

The ogre got really cheated compared to the troll. The troll is far more powerful and only 3 ECL higher. +2 HD, +2 str, +6 dex, +8 con, -2 wis, +2 natural armor, natural attacks + rend ability, regeneration 5!!!, +1 feat. BTW, isn't the will save on the troll a typo? It should be +1 instead of +3. If there is anything a PC can take advantage of more than large is regeneration. Get some fire and acid resistance and you are golden.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

1st level Barbarian Ogre, 9 ECL

(built with 32 point)

STR: 26 DEX: 10 CON: 20 INT: 8 WIS: 12 CHA: 6

HP (assuming average): 4D8+1D10 (maxed) + 25: 58

Melee: +11 (-1 size +4 BAB +8 STR)
Ranged: +3 (-1 size +4 BAB)

Fortitude: +11
Ref: +1
Will: +2

Damage using a huge great sword: 2D8+12

Of course he could use a standard great sword in one hand and a shield.

AC: +3 above another fighter with the same starting dex and the same armor (-1 size, -1 for lower dex +5 natural armor)

Factor in the reach, the size advantage for grapples and such. Give hims feats. Equip him as a 9th level PC (hey, he's adventuring with 9th level PCs so he's gonna get appropriate equipment sooner or later).

ECL 5? Yeah right. Welcome to the adventures of Ghorgor the Mighty Ogre and his faithful sidekicks. ECL 8? He'll pull his weight but he'll be in trouble from time to time. Enters the other PCs.

I think the ogre will be a little weak for his first levels but that he'll grow stronger with experience. An 8th level ogre VS a 16th level fighter? Sounds about right.

 

[Michael Tree]

Mal Malenkirk:
By way of comparison, here are a couple of core rules 9th level characters to compare to your Ogre.


9th level Barbarian Half-Orc, 9 ECL

(built with 32 point)

STR: 20 DEX: 12 CON: 16 INT: 12 WIS: 10 CHA: 6

HP (assuming average): 9D12 (1st level maxed) + 27 = 91
(BTW Mal, your ogre should get a d12 for Barbarian, and have 55 HP total)

AC: +0 above another fighter with the same starting dex and the same armor

Melee: +11/+6 (+9 BAB +5 STR)
Ranged:+10/+5 (+9 BAB +1 DEX)

Damage (with a greatsword): 2d6+7

Fortitude: +9
Ref: +4
Will: +3

3 feats (compared to the Ogre's 1 feat)
Rage 3/day and Uncanny Dodge (and many levels closer to achieving DR than the Ogre)

Massive numbers of skill points (compared to the Ogre's feeble skills)
-----

Compare this to your Ogre barbarian. The 9th level barbarian outclasses it in almost every single way. It has almost twice as many hit points, 7 or 8 times as many skill points, more feats, better attack bonuses, and more attacks. It has a slightly lower AC, and doesn't do as much damage per attack.

Also note that this 9th level barbarian isn't even remotely minmaxed, wheras your ogre is. I could just as easily multiclass or take prestige classes to boost the 9th level character's power immensely. Add weapon specialization, and a few more class abilities and feats, and the damage gap is narrowed.

-----

Here's another, more sobering comparison.


Dwarf Fighter 1/ Wizard 8, 9 ECL

(built with 32 point)

(polymorph'd into an annis hag)
(note that I'm not including buffing spells like bull's strength, cat's grace, haste, displacement, improved invisibility, shield, and so on, even though this character could quite easily have them).

STR: 25 (12 natural) DEX: 12 (10 natural) CON: 14 (18 natural) INT: 18 WIS: 14 CHA: 6

HP (assuming average): 8D4+1D10 (maxed) + 36: 66

Melee: +11 (-1 size +5 BAB +7 STR)
Ranged: +5 (-1 size +5 BAB +1 DEX)

Fortitude: +6
Ref: +3
Will: +8
(+2 bonuses to save vs. spells, poison, and disease)

Damage using a huge great sword: 2D8+10
10' reach and grapple bonuses from size

AC: +10+armor (-1 size, +1 dex, +10 natural)

Feats: 6 (3 general, 1 fighter, 2 wizard)

Massive numbers of skill points compared to the ogre.

In other words, a ECL 9 wizard is more than a match for your ogre barbarian in a fight, having more hit points, better armor class, and more combat feats, and that's while not even using most of his abilities! After beating up the Ogre, he still has numerous offensive and miscellaneous spells left over.

 

[Wolfspider]

Heh. Lot's of interesting ideas being thrown around in this thread.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

The wizard comparison is meaningless. Why not just cast Hold Monster on the ogre and then dagger him to death?

The same goes for most any 9th level half orc barabarian.

So by that reasoning, no one should ever play fighters or barbarians.

As to the half-orc, yes he can beat up the ogre in a straight fight. No one has ever disputed that. To the contrary it has been pointed out on several occasions that the advantage of being able to shine should go to the core races by default.

But all you have established is that an Ogre F1 is not a good challenge for a 9th level character, which one can tell by simply looking in the MM and seeing that the Ogre would only be CR3.
You could have saved a lot of typing by simply pointing that out.
Add in gear and 32 points and maybe it would be CR 5 or 6, but nowhere near CR9.

But what about the ongoing adavantages of being massively strong and large. Non-combat brute strength challenges appear all the time in typical games. A Str of 26+ is going to make the other characters (even your barabrian) competely side characters when pure strength is the issue.

Look at carrying capacity:
your orc: light load: 133 lbs heavy load max:400 lbs
the ogre: light load: 612 lbs (more than you can carry at all) heavy load max: 1840 pounds

Then consider the roleplaying implications of being a STR 26 ogre. You are not just an ogre, you are almost certainly the biggest ogre within 200 miles. So you can easily pretend to be a simple (very large) ogre and dupe bad guy trolls and ogres, etc into thinking you are the new tough in town, getting them to follow you into a trap. Or simpy scare the locals, whatever.....

To say that a F1 ogre could not be a fun and useful member of a
level 9 party only shows a short-sighted lack of imagination. To say that a half-orc barbarian character should be expected to be only as good at fighting as the ogre character and then be completely overshadowed by the ogre outside of combat in so many occasions is totally unfair to the half-orc.

Yes the half-orc is better in direct combat. He better be.

 

[Wolfspider]

Good points, A.U. You're right that the ogre will be the best darn door opener in the world (to use a classic image).

To the contrary it has been pointed out on several occasions that the advantage of being able to shine should go to the core races by default.

I tend to disagree on principle with this remark. I think that all characters, whether standard or not, should have a chance to shine. If the monster character doesn't shine at least as often as the other characters, then what's the point of playing one? The half-orc barbarian should be able to rage and impressively slaughter dozens of foes. The dwarven wizard should be able to fireball an equal amount of nasties and just blow the smoke from the tip of his finger with a twinkle in his eye. An ogre fighter should be able to pick up the obscene idol that the cultists have been worshipping and smash the perverts with it. ALL PCs should have a chance to shine, no matter what their race. If a DM is going to play favorites with the regular races, he might as well not allow monster PCs into the game.

This is why I think that it's important to make sure that the ECLs are as accurate as possible. Over the course of the thread, I have become convinced through excellent arguments that the ECL of a lizardfolk SHOULD be 4. (Of course, I'm going to try to convince my DM to let ol' Sedek stay at ECL 2 if I just give up those two extra Hit Dice and everything based on them.)

Now I think we should move on to other monsters, like we're doing with the ogre, and debate the heck out of the given ECLs. The article in Dragon asked for input; I think we should give it to them.

Mwuahahahahaha!

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I agree they should all shine. I guess I really did not state that as well as I could have. I simply think that being an ogre or a lizardfolk or whatever carries its own shine with it, the coolness factor already discussed.

But if the ogre can shine in combat as well as the half-orc barbarian, then when will the half orc barbarian ever be able to shine?

If you want to shine in melee combat the fighter and barbarian classes are already available. To have something new come in and outdo or even equal that would be unfair.

Take the ogre option if you want to shine at being really big and really strong. That option is not avalable in the core rules.

Lastly, even though everyone should shine, I will stand by my opinion that the benefit of the doubt should always go to the core races. The burden of going outside the rules should go on the player who wants to do that, not the other players.

 

[Wolfspider]

Take the ogre option if you want to shine at being really big and really strong. That option is not avalable in the core rules.

Exactly! The barbarian comes close to being reall strong with his rage ability, but nothing can really come close to the raw power of the ogre. I think that an ogre PC doesn't have to be a great fighter in order to shine in that regard. But I still think the ECL needs be be tweaked a bit in order to produce a character that will be able to survive. In other words, I'm not quite convinced that ECL 8 is right on for the ogre.