James McMurray
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Lizardfolk = ECL 4?!?!
- Thread starter Wolfspider
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Arcane Runes Press
First Post
"To say that a F1 ogre could not be a fun and useful member of a
level 9 party only shows a short-sighted lack of imagination. To say that a half-orc barbarian character should be expected to be only as good at fighting as the ogre character and then be completely overshadowed by the ogre outside of combat in so many occasions is totally unfair to the half-orc.
But if the ogre can shine in combat as well as the half-orc barbarian, then when will the half orc barbarian ever be able to shine?"
The half-orc will shine as often as his player MAKES him shine. The half-orc will be overshadowed only if his player LETS him be.
Consider:
1) Skill points: The half-orc Barbarian is a skill hound compared to the Ogre. He can shine by using Wilderness Lore to be the party tracker. He can shine by virtue of his Listen skill. He can shine by virtue of his Craft skills.
2) Roleplaying: There is nothing inherant to the Ogre that makes him a better roleplaying experience than a half-orc barbarian, or, for that matter, a human rogue.
I want a WoTC monster-pc rulebook to be balanced STRICTLY by mechanical effectiveness (special powers, spells, BAB, skill, feats, etc...). The last thing I want is for them to decide for me what the "coolness factor" of something is worth. I can do that on my own
level 9 party only shows a short-sighted lack of imagination. To say that a half-orc barbarian character should be expected to be only as good at fighting as the ogre character and then be completely overshadowed by the ogre outside of combat in so many occasions is totally unfair to the half-orc.
But if the ogre can shine in combat as well as the half-orc barbarian, then when will the half orc barbarian ever be able to shine?"
The half-orc will shine as often as his player MAKES him shine. The half-orc will be overshadowed only if his player LETS him be.
Consider:
1) Skill points: The half-orc Barbarian is a skill hound compared to the Ogre. He can shine by using Wilderness Lore to be the party tracker. He can shine by virtue of his Listen skill. He can shine by virtue of his Craft skills.
2) Roleplaying: There is nothing inherant to the Ogre that makes him a better roleplaying experience than a half-orc barbarian, or, for that matter, a human rogue.
I want a WoTC monster-pc rulebook to be balanced STRICTLY by mechanical effectiveness (special powers, spells, BAB, skill, feats, etc...). The last thing I want is for them to decide for me what the "coolness factor" of something is worth. I can do that on my own
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The Furious Puffin
First Post
Why o Why does everyone do there comparisons at Level !?!?
Doing the comparisons at Lvl 1 ogre vs. 9 fighter is always going to skew the results due to the hit point issue and proportion of levels spent on race rather than class . The fighters are always going to win because a great portion of the ECL is being spent on "template" (Ie levels that provide solely special abilites) levels which do not provide hit points BAB or whatever else. THis shows particular with solely template creatures such as the half Dragon
The real issue is at much higher levels, and this is why I suspect the ECLs are so high, as the ECL template/creature has to balanced at very high levels (16-20) as well
When bumped up to 12th level Barbarian the ogre has a much better chance against the 20lvl Half-orc.
The orge is only 14 Hps behind, not a great deal when you consider his hit points are now 182 and the Half orc is only at 196
Then the ogres other abilities come to the fore, but of course the 20 lvl barbarian will be sporting his improved rage, DR, and other nice bits. I think the barbarian will be stronger (no books handy) just due to the increased magic item budget, but it will be much closer than the 1st vs. 9th comparison that we are seeing below, where the Half Orc barbarian is totally dominant. For example his +6 str rage will give him the same STR as the orge.
It's totally ridiculous to compare at the compare at the lowest possible level, especially with very high ECLs because of this. Another example is the Half dragon template was viewed by wizards of the coast as to low at ECL +3 and moved up.
However a level 4 fighter with Strength 18, Dex 18, weapon spec. in a great sword and with improved initiative with chop a level 1 Half dragon mage every time due to his high init., while the half dragons 8 or 10 hit points are insufficent to have a hope of surviving when whacked and the fighters 10 point minimum damage. Even if the Half dragon is a fighter a decent hit will kill him as his Hitpoints are very low (6 more points). THe half dragon character has no real chance in a party of 4th level characters because if he gets hit once or twice he goes down. Does this make the half dragon template deserving of a lower ECL?
No, because the same half dragon mage or fighter at 16th level is a very good match for a level 20 human fighter.
The Hit point gap will still be the same, but due to the high hit points at levels 16-20 the difference is not as great proportionately, the slighly lesser BAB will hurt, but the statistics boost and breath weapon ETC will be providing compensation.
When doing these comparions of combat ability comparisions it is important that it is performed at both the lowest possible and highest possible levels to see BOTH ends of the spectrum. While and ECL 8 orge is sadly underpowered at first level, he seems to balance resonably well at 8th level.
Doing the comparisons at Lvl 1 ogre vs. 9 fighter is always going to skew the results due to the hit point issue and proportion of levels spent on race rather than class . The fighters are always going to win because a great portion of the ECL is being spent on "template" (Ie levels that provide solely special abilites) levels which do not provide hit points BAB or whatever else. THis shows particular with solely template creatures such as the half Dragon
The real issue is at much higher levels, and this is why I suspect the ECLs are so high, as the ECL template/creature has to balanced at very high levels (16-20) as well
When bumped up to 12th level Barbarian the ogre has a much better chance against the 20lvl Half-orc.
The orge is only 14 Hps behind, not a great deal when you consider his hit points are now 182 and the Half orc is only at 196
Then the ogres other abilities come to the fore, but of course the 20 lvl barbarian will be sporting his improved rage, DR, and other nice bits. I think the barbarian will be stronger (no books handy) just due to the increased magic item budget, but it will be much closer than the 1st vs. 9th comparison that we are seeing below, where the Half Orc barbarian is totally dominant. For example his +6 str rage will give him the same STR as the orge.
It's totally ridiculous to compare at the compare at the lowest possible level, especially with very high ECLs because of this. Another example is the Half dragon template was viewed by wizards of the coast as to low at ECL +3 and moved up.
However a level 4 fighter with Strength 18, Dex 18, weapon spec. in a great sword and with improved initiative with chop a level 1 Half dragon mage every time due to his high init., while the half dragons 8 or 10 hit points are insufficent to have a hope of surviving when whacked and the fighters 10 point minimum damage. Even if the Half dragon is a fighter a decent hit will kill him as his Hitpoints are very low (6 more points). THe half dragon character has no real chance in a party of 4th level characters because if he gets hit once or twice he goes down. Does this make the half dragon template deserving of a lower ECL?
No, because the same half dragon mage or fighter at 16th level is a very good match for a level 20 human fighter.
The Hit point gap will still be the same, but due to the high hit points at levels 16-20 the difference is not as great proportionately, the slighly lesser BAB will hurt, but the statistics boost and breath weapon ETC will be providing compensation.
When doing these comparions of combat ability comparisions it is important that it is performed at both the lowest possible and highest possible levels to see BOTH ends of the spectrum. While and ECL 8 orge is sadly underpowered at first level, he seems to balance resonably well at 8th level.
dcollins
Explorer
Wolfspider said:
CRGreathouse said:This is different in FR, which has the ECL rules everyone is actually using (unless you base character level off total HD, that is).
Not that I've put them to the test, but I'm in the position where ECL guidelines in my campaign are still according to core rules.
Now, I think, CG, you're saying that in FR, monster PCs get equipment according to their full ECL + class levels (correct?). But it's just occurred to me that this creates a self-fulfilling-prophecy; ECL is trying to measure the potency of a character including its standard magic equipment, but as the ECL goes up, so does the magic equipment.
I can imagine a vicious cycle where one thinks that race X is worth +5 ECL, and then think: but now he gets an added +13,000 gp on top of his abilities, so he's too powerful, so he should be +6 ECL, but now he gets +19,000 gp, so he's too powerful, so he should be +7 ECL... and so forth.
Maybe I'm not inferring the true FR rules for ECL, but if ECL both measures and dictates the appropriate character wealth level, then you've got a recursive parameter that is going to be degenerate no matter what you do.
Wolfspider
Explorer
Well said.
In other news, there has been a development in the ongoing saga of Sedek the lizardfolk druid. Looking back over the Monster Manual, I just realized that the lizardfolk DOESN'T get darkvision as I had first thought. Lizardfolk are considered humanoids, and humanoids don't get special vision unless their descriptions say so (and the lizardfolk entry doesn't). Monstrous humanoids, however, do get special vision. Lizardfolk seem more like monstrous humanoids than humanoids to me, but that's beside the point.
So that's one special power scratched off the list, and one more thing I'll have to add to Sedek's equipment list: torches.
I just gotta watch out for swamp gas.....
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Mal Malenkirk
First Post
1-equipment: Don't be silly, an Ogre PC will have as much equipment as his companions, nevermind his level.
A 5th level fighter Ogre adventuring with a 13th level wizard will have roughly the same equipment value as his bookworm buddy.
I mean, who is going to deny an ogre his fair share of treasures at the end of the adventure?!
2-Ogre fighter 1 VS Barbarian 9 (or fighter 9, which would be a better comparison)
First of all, my ogre was no more min-maxed than your barbarian. 8 INT and 12 WIS makes him a mental genius compared to most ogre.
Secondly, yes the H-orc barbarian has a few edge over the ogre. He better have! He does less damage than the ogre, has no reach, no natural armor, isn't as good at grappling and tripping, can carry much less equipment, can't lift a party member 15 feet high to help him climb and can't pick up a 1,500 pound statue lift it above his head and then throw it down a balcony at people below.
So yeah, the H-O has a better melee score and more HP than the ogre fighter. Leave the poor bastard something over the ogre!
Beside, with +4 CON over the H-O, the gap in HP will reduce as he grow in level. The ogre might have less HP now but he'll gain 2 more HP than an equivalent fighter each time they level up...
A 5th level fighter Ogre adventuring with a 13th level wizard will have roughly the same equipment value as his bookworm buddy.
I mean, who is going to deny an ogre his fair share of treasures at the end of the adventure?!
2-Ogre fighter 1 VS Barbarian 9 (or fighter 9, which would be a better comparison)
First of all, my ogre was no more min-maxed than your barbarian. 8 INT and 12 WIS makes him a mental genius compared to most ogre.
Secondly, yes the H-orc barbarian has a few edge over the ogre. He better have! He does less damage than the ogre, has no reach, no natural armor, isn't as good at grappling and tripping, can carry much less equipment, can't lift a party member 15 feet high to help him climb and can't pick up a 1,500 pound statue lift it above his head and then throw it down a balcony at people below.
So yeah, the H-O has a better melee score and more HP than the ogre fighter. Leave the poor bastard something over the ogre!
Beside, with +4 CON over the H-O, the gap in HP will reduce as he grow in level. The ogre might have less HP now but he'll gain 2 more HP than an equivalent fighter each time they level up...
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The Furious Puffin
First Post
Me ;-)
Ummmmm..... The 9 Level half Orc babarian who can kick the snot out of him?
According to the rules he doesn't - it's that simple. Of course once he joins your party the DM can do whatever he likes, but the simple fact reamains that when the ogre joins the game he *should* have as much treasure as is dictated by his class level
Mal Malenkirk said:
Ummmmm..... The 9 Level half Orc babarian who can kick the snot out of him?
According to the rules he doesn't - it's that simple. Of course once he joins your party the DM can do whatever he likes, but the simple fact reamains that when the ogre joins the game he *should* have as much treasure as is dictated by his class level
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Re: Me ;-)
The DM has nothing to do with treasure distribution amongst the party.
And even if the Ogre enter the game with almost no gold (which is logical when you think about it) he will not have to a be a pauper for long if I'm in the party.
Let's assume a gentle ogre saves the party from a rough spot and then is adopted by the PCs (a common enough introduction for an ogre PC I would think):
The first thing I'd do as a grateful person and as a team player is sell a few of my less useful items in order to raise gold for the ogre. And I sure hope the other PCs would also do the same.
What sort chaotic evil group of munchkin would let a party member adventure with a big club and a loincloth for equipment?
The Furious Puffin said:
The DM has nothing to do with treasure distribution amongst the party.
And even if the Ogre enter the game with almost no gold (which is logical when you think about it) he will not have to a be a pauper for long if I'm in the party.
Let's assume a gentle ogre saves the party from a rough spot and then is adopted by the PCs (a common enough introduction for an ogre PC I would think):
The first thing I'd do as a grateful person and as a team player is sell a few of my less useful items in order to raise gold for the ogre. And I sure hope the other PCs would also do the same.
What sort chaotic evil group of munchkin would let a party member adventure with a big club and a loincloth for equipment?
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The Furious Puffin
First Post
Re: Re: Me ;-)
Quite a lot. By simply deciding what items are in the adventure a DM can exercise all sorts of controls. If the item is a standard sized rapier the orge has no use for except as a toothpick. A robe of wild shape is no good to the orge.
If the players are selling the DM is again in a totally commanding position, if your world is low magic it may be very difficult to sell magic items and impossible to purchase them (no buyers who can lay the money on the table and no sellers willing to part with the gear).
The orge will have access to equipment of course, although at the expensive rate suggested for large custom made armour.
But for all that I agree with you, the Forgotten realms method of counting ECL levels towards character levels for most purposes seems to be the most logical, and is how I have been doing it anyway (Not realising that I was infact doing it wrong!) I have been playing that way for feats, bonus stat points, Items everything.
Mal Malenkirk said:
Quite a lot. By simply deciding what items are in the adventure a DM can exercise all sorts of controls. If the item is a standard sized rapier the orge has no use for except as a toothpick. A robe of wild shape is no good to the orge.
If the players are selling the DM is again in a totally commanding position, if your world is low magic it may be very difficult to sell magic items and impossible to purchase them (no buyers who can lay the money on the table and no sellers willing to part with the gear).
The orge will have access to equipment of course, although at the expensive rate suggested for large custom made armour.
But for all that I agree with you, the Forgotten realms method of counting ECL levels towards character levels for most purposes seems to be the most logical, and is how I have been doing it anyway (Not realising that I was infact doing it wrong!) I have been playing that way for feats, bonus stat points, Items everything.
Axiomatic Unicorn
First Post
Arcane Runes Press said:
Trying to account for player ability is a bad plan.
You point out that the half -orc can still shine, that is my whole point. At the current level, both characters can shine therefore, balance.
I never said the ogre would be a better roleplaying experience. I said that being an ogre that is 6 to 8 points stronger than the average ogre will have major roleplaying advantages built right into it. Are you denying that? In effect I am pointing out a mechanical advantage that manifests itself in the roleplaying side of the game rather than the combat side of the game.
I am sure you are capable of gaging your own coolness factor for yourself. I am not sure that you (at least in the generic sense) are capable of gaging a coolness factor that is fair to the other players. If an ogre is as well rounded overall as a human, the reason to play a human is greatly diminished.
Like I said before, if the WOTC rules are tight and you want to back off, then no harm is done. But if the WOTC rules are to loose and you are forced to take away from the players, that sucks. To not include the "coolness factor" would be a big mistake. Note that I am not saying the coolness factor should be big, simply erring on the side of 1 ECL higher is enough.
I already posted a which woudl your prefer A or B scenario above. I won't type it again here. Please go back and look at it and tell me how you waould answer.
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