Lizardfolk = ECL 4?!?!

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Michael,

I still assert that the wizard example was entirely meaningless. The only reason the wizard was superior was because of a spell.
You say it is not about the potency of spells, when in fact it 100% about the potency of spells.

The hold monster spell will competely negate all of the advantages of both the fighter and barbarian classes. Does that mean the classes are not worth it?

As to roleplaying factors, as I stated already, I am not talking about the simple fun of playing the game, which, of course, should in no way be a balancing factor. I am talking about an alternative for roleplaying toward solving a problem or defeating an enemy that would not be available to normal characters. If it contributes to the character concept being directly able to achieve a goal, it should certainly be a balancing factor.

If you want to claim that being large, having reach and having vastly greater STR than the other characters is summed up as being better at opening doors, then I stand my claim of short-sightedness.

 

[Marshall]

4th level psychic warrior dog (awakened)

Dog, small animal

(Built with 32 points, assuming no modifier to INT and -2 to charisma)

STR: 18 (+2 racial + 1 for 4th level)
DEX: 20 (+6 racial)
CON: 18 (+4 racial)
INT: 12
WIS: 14 (+2 racial)
CHA: 10 (-2 racial)

Gee, thats a heck of a dog. If theyre are stupid enough to give ridiculous bonuses to attributes then You can justify just about any ECL. Course then its not a Dog either.

 

[Marshall]

Err, do you have any idea what kind of havoc a fighter or barbarian ogre would wreak as a +5 ECL?

He'll have a better melee score and more HP than a human fighter of equivalent level. And of course he'll get the advantage of being bigger.

Human Fighter = Good Melee, Poor Social
Ogre Fighter at 5 ECL = Great Melee, NO Social
Ogre Fighter at 8 ECL = Good Melee, NO Social

An Ogre does NOTHING, Nada, Zip, zero, zilch, outside of combat. He'd better be damn good in.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

An Ogre does NOTHING, Nada, Zip, zero, zilch, outside of combat. He'd better be damn good in.

If you put it that way, neither does a human fighter.

Is the human fighter going to be the spokeman for the party? Is he going to be the scout? Is he going to move like a shadow in the underworld to gather information?

Sure, a human fighter would be better at all these task than an ogre fighter. But that's irrelevant because compared to the other classes he still suck at it and the other PCs in the party will get these jobs anyway.

A fighter, no matter his race, provide almost nothing to the party except for excellent combat abilities.

That doesn't stop him from having fun roleplaying, though. Same for the Ogre fighter.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, not to only be contrary, but if you compare an ogre at 9th level to say, the Mighty Contender of Kord prestige class (Dragon 283), the Contender (STR 30 with no magic, 34 if raging) would wipe the floor with the ogre.

That 30 is assuming an 18 base?

An Ogre with an 18 base would be Str 28, from what I can see (using only the Core Rules - I don't know if this has changed in FRCS).

Is 30 Str, 5' Reach, and a Large weapon vs 28 Str, 10' Reach, and a Huge weapon really a "wipe the floor" situation?

Granted, I don't know what else the Contender has going for it. But it looked like you were basing your point on the difference in Strength...?

-Hyp.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Oh yeah, I forgot to adress the mighty contender point:

1- I don't think an unofficial PR class should enter these kind of discussion.

2- If the DM allows this PR class, the ogre could BE a mighty contender of Kord.

So what does "a mighty contender would wipe the floor with the ogre" supposed to mean?

 

[Hypersmurf]

2- If the DM allows this PR class, the ogre could BE a mighty contender of Kord.

Well, eventually, yeah, but he was talking about an ogre with only one class level. An ogre against a PC of level equal to the ogre's ECL.

-Hyp.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

*scowling*

Whose side are you on anyway?

 

[Hypersmurf]

*scowling*

Whose side are you on anyway?

If you distract him too much, he won't answer me!

I'm just trying to be the centre of attention...

-Hyp.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

You egomaniac, you.

For your information, an Ogre could become a mighty contender of Kord on his 2nd or 3rd PC level. Just make sure he isn't too stupid.

Swap all his normal skill points (9 + INT) for knowledge (religion). That's a cross class skill so you'll get 4 or 5 ranks. Then take cleric as your 1st PC class and try to reach 9 rank of Knowledge.

You'll make it on your 1st or 2nd cleric level with a decent INT. Tadaa! You can be a Mighty contender of Kord if you selected the right feats.

Remember, an Ogre has 9 skill points (+INT), +3 BAB, +4 base fortitude and one feat. That's not awesome, but he isn't starting from scratch if he wants a prestige class.