Locating a Druid using Natural Spell

[Quasqueton]

usually I'm flying above

Can you fly and cast at the same time? The bird form's wings are your arms/hands. I've always made a wild shaped druid perch somewhere to cast with Natural Spell.

Quasqueton

 

[Tellerve]

Note I said this was only "If you are up close to an animal casting a spell". I should have probably been more clear. By close I really mean a very close distance such as an adjacent square 5' away. If you are that close to an animal and focusing your attention on it, I think even the an untrained person would become suspicious when the see an animal do something really strange. If you are that close and can see a squirrel curl its 4th claw on each hand and slightly bend it's wrists then lock it's gaze at you, I don't think it would necessarily require a spellcraft to identify it as odd. Then when his armor starts feeling burning hot to the touch, I'd say the Mr. Untrained has a heckuva good chance of making a connection that the squirrel may have just cast a spell at him.

Yeah, I really don't agree with this at all. And we'll never agree I'm sure, but that's the good thing about individual styles and games. I just don't think a normal person would just assume 'cause some mouse nearby squeaked at him and rubbed his face and now his armor is heating up it would be related. In a world of magic I would think he'd be looking for an invisible caster of some sort.

If does bring something I gotta ask that is a bit of a tangent. If it says for spellcraft you must hear or see the spell's verbal or somatic components wouldn't that mean that for races whose language you don't speak you couldn't make a spellcraft check? I know some campaigns have everyone casting with the same language, so it wouldn't be an issue, but otherwise would people just have hefty penalties? As for somatic, are they all the same? Is it like the "common" language used throughout the whole world and mysteriously everyone uses the same one?

Tellerve

 

[Tellerve]

So you're basically saying "There's a good chance that a druid using natural spell can stand right in the open in front of a character and cast spells, and the character won't notice him acting unusual in any way".

It seems to me that you're going out of your way to make excuses for why someone wouldn't recognise a spellcasting animal.

Has it occured to you that the above mean a significant increase in the power of the natural spell feat?

It has. I guess that's just personal preference then, but I wouldn't consider myself going out of my way. Instead I'm looking at it from both a pc and dm point of view and how I think it should work. It is obvious that there are differences of opinion, that's what makes the world go 'round.

I would probably allow pcs to use Spellcraft as you do, except I'd just put a penalty unless they had some reason to know that the animal was acting weird. It is stylistic as I don't think normal casters go all wacky when they cast, so it isn't like the raccoon is all rabid when casting either.

Tellerve

 

[Nail]

I just don't think a normal person would just assume 'cause some mouse nearby squeaked at him and rubbed his face and now his armor is heating up it would be related.

You're making assumptions about how spells are cast. (As well as ignoring the fact that D&D is a magic-heavy world, and its residents know that.)

Casting usually requires components. Those components usually are somatic, verbal, and material. Casting with those components usually takes a standard action, which is a significant amount of time within a combat round.

...so saying "the mouse rubbed his face" doesn't quite do the action justice, does it?

You and your players can make-up whatever sorts of descriptions of somatic components you like. They are not (thankfully!) listed in the rules. But what is listed in the rules is that the somatic component is part of a standard action....not a free action, as your mouse-face-rubbing example implies.

Moreover: Don't confuse "Spotting a Hiding spellcaster" with "recognizing spell casting". The mouse may very well be hidden. This is a game term, and can only be so if the mouse is fulfilling a certain set of requirements. Just sitting round on the ground usually does not quailify.

 

[Nail]

Let's go a step farther.

The druid cat (size Tiny, which means Druid level 11; Druids can't wildshape into a mouse, as it's size Diminutive) is in the middle of a battle. It's not hiding, but it is sitting behind some grass and so on...enough for concealment. (Without concealment, it is automatically spotted, btw.) It's 50 feet away from the opposition, so it can use Baleful Polymorph, Summon Nature's Ally and the like.

The enemy, meanwhile, is occupied with the druid's allies in melee combat.

The druid casts Baleful Polymorph, and suddenly one of the Enemy is a cat. (The druid is hoping to sow confusion should anyone spot her. Clever?) The other's in the Enemy group get reactive Spot and Listen checks, no?

Sure they do!

The Listen DC is: base of DC 0 (person -cat!- "talking"), +5 for distance, +5 for listener distracted. Total Listen Check DC is: 10

The Spot DC is: base of 0 (person is not using the Hide skill), +5 for distance, +5 for spotter distracted, +2 for size Tiny cat. Total Spot Check DC is: 12

Got it? DC in the 10 - 12 range. Two reactive rolls are required, per enemy combatant. Any guesses on how many of the enemy notice the spell-casting cat in some way?

 

[Felix]

In my example, I never said the mouse was trying to be stealthy. Don't assume he was.

But what about the case where the mouse doesn't try to hide or move silent?

If the bloody mouse isn't trying to be stealthy, then he gets penalized by being noticed as the origin of the spell. Want to hide? Great, move-equiv action and you're off.

At that distance it's squeeks will be extremely hard to hear as well...
*snip*
...To me, this simply proves that RAW are inadequate for this case...

You're adding more features to the feat; stop that. A spellcasting wildshaped rodent is just as easy to hear as a human caster. "But mouse lungs can't make that loud a noise!" Sure. But it's not a mouse... it's a Wildshaped druid.

Spotting a wildshaped caster and a regular caster are exactly the same mechanically, except any size difference there might be, and the presence of concealment from hiding in a tree. The only difference is that the druid is wildshaped. The rules are inadequate to cope with Natural Spell because you give the feat extra features.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Ok, I showed you the rules that show that one automatically knows when someone is casting a spell.

Actually, you showed me the rules on Spellcraft being used to identify the spell which did point out Spellcraft is useless on anything that is still & silent (and assuming there's no visible spell effect). The only rules I've seen say "if you cast a spell in combat, you take an AoO because you are distracted" but nothing says "when you cast a spell, everyone knows you are casting a spell."

No, you need spellcraft to identify the spell. You don't need spellcraft to identify that a spell is being cast.

Let's try different logic. How do you tell the difference between a wizard who casts Detect Magic and a fighter who pronounces identical syllables with the same hand gestures? Both appear to be a spell but only one of them is casting. The fighter, btw, does not draw an AoO but he probably sacrifices a standard action for the hand waiving. Had he mimed spiderclimb he would because eating/drinking evokes an AoO (see the section on Potions).

If someone ready's an action vs. spellcasting and the target uses a psionics power would you disallow it because the attacker "knows it isn't spellcasting so that's not what the readied for"? What about a spell-like ability?

I'll point out that counterspelling involves a spellcraft check as a free action which would allow you to recognize fake casting (DC15 as if spell level 0). The "ready action against spellcasting" would be whenever the target get's that spaced-out, "I deserve an AoO" look more than complete assurance that they can recognize spellcasting 100% of the time.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Let's try different logic. How do you tell the difference between a wizard who casts Detect Magic and a fighter who pronounces identical syllables with the same hand gestures? Both appear to be a spell but only one of them is casting. The fighter, btw, does not draw an AoO but he probably sacrifices a standard action for the hand waiving.

On the contrary, "use skill that takes 1 action ... usually" provokes an AoO.

The fighter is obviously Bluffing in order to mimic the "Cast a Spell" standard action, and therefore would provoke an AoO. After all, he's got to stop fighting in exactly the same manner as the Wizard would.

 

[BSF]

There are enough arguements that Natural Spell is a must have for Druids already. I see no reason to make it any more difficult than normal for a Wildshaped Druid to be identified as a spellcaster. Change size + casting from a greater distance? Sure, let the spot and listen checks ride. Otherwise, it is an animal behaving like a spellcaster.

Does the observer know it is a wildshaped Druid? Without prior knowledge, or possibly applicable skills, no.

I have to set some of the logic aside here. This is D&D which is abstracted to all get out. Natural spell allows you to perform the somatic & verbal components even while Wildshaped. It doesn't mean you are a cat squalling spells and scratching behind your ears. Why wouldn't the verbal and somatic components be nearly identical to humanoid shaped ones?

You can argue that somebody wouldn't be able to detect the sparrow twittering in the tree as a wildshaped druid casting spells all you like. The fact is that you are making the Natural Spell feat even more valuable. That is your call and it is your campaign, but Natural Spell is damned useful without those additions.

Now, if you want to disguise your spells, go dig up Song & Silence, convert Disguise Spell to 3.5 and take both. Now you have an associated cost with the nearly impossible to recognize Wildshaped Druid.

 

[Kalendraf]

You're adding more features to the feat; stop that. A spellcasting wildshaped rodent is just as easy to hear as a human caster. "But mouse lungs can't make that loud a noise!" Sure. But it's not a mouse... it's a Wildshaped druid.

By the RAW, that's not correct, and here's why. From the SRD:

Wildshape
A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make

Thus, as per that rule, a wildshaped druid has all the characteristics of a mouse right down to the vocal abilities and volume. Now the next question is, does the Natural Spell feat affect this? From the SRD:

Natural Spell
You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.

In other words, the feat doesn't affect the sounds. It merely allows those sounds to be used instead of the normal sounds a druid would make. Hence, the sounds that a wildshaped druid makes can be no different, and no louder than the sounds that a normal animal is able to make regardless of whether they are spellcasting or not.

As a result, a wildshaped druid casting a spell is no easier to hear than any other creature of the form he has taken. If that form is small and has a very quiet voice, the wildshaped druid will be equally quiet when using that voice.

Hence, your proposal that a druid in rodent form is "just as easy to hear as a human caster" is proven false by the RAW.

Please don't accuse me of improving the abilities that Natural Spell provides. I'm merely following the RAW here. The feat is extremely powerful, and it has some "hidden" features which really only become apparent after a thorough inspection like this. I'm not giving the feat extra abilities - they are already there!