Locating a Druid using Natural Spell

[Sejs]

In other words, the feat doesn't affect the sounds. It merely allows those sounds to be used instead of the normal sounds a druid would make. Hence, the sounds that a wildshaped druid makes can be no different, and no louder than the sounds that a normal animal is able to make regardless of whether they are spellcasting or not.

As a result, a wildshaped druid casting a spell is no easier to hear than any other creature of the form he has taken. If that form is small and has a very quiet voice, the wildshaped druid will be equally quiet when using that voice.

Hence, your proposal that a druid in rodent form is "just as easy to hear as a human caster" is proven false by the RAW.

Heh, and by that interpretation, a druid wildshaped into any of a number of animals suddenly finds his spellcasting is much more audible than it used to be. Creatures miles and miles away can tell he's squawk-chanting, or howling out some spell.

Cuts both ways.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

According to the RAW spellcasting done by anyone or anything is automatically recognized as spellcasting.

Automatically recognized by anyone?
Recognized by someone who doesn't know magic?
Recognized by a barbarian who has never seen magic?
Does this universal automatic magic-sensing ability also extend to discerning fake from real spellcasting, or do you at least grant that Bluff can be used to make fake spellcasting appear to be real?

Really, I completely agree that Natural Spell is extremely powerful and that druids don't need more of an advantage. However, house-ruling the feat seems a better solution than pushing the proposition that every person in the world can tell spellcasting from gobbledygook without any sort of training whatsoever. I know, I know, this is "Rules," not "House Rules," but the rules in this case are so blatantly nonsensical that I wonder if there is some application of the Bluff skill in a supplement somewhere, or some errata, or a question on a FAQ... just something I haven't seen.

Forgetting about druids for a second, I can see a lot of instances where other PCs might wish to pretend they were casting a spell. (Drawing readied attacks away from the mage; drawing out a counterspell; intimidating mundanes; as part of a disguise; or a wizard out of spells bluffing that he has one or two big ones left)

 

[Jdvn1]

Can you fly and cast at the same time? The bird form's wings are your arms/hands. I've always made a wild shaped druid perch somewhere to cast with Natural Spell.

Quasqueton

I don't see why not. RAW, I believe you can glide as a free action. A bird might move its feet around a bit or shake its head or something. Wouldn't look like normal flying, I would think.

 

[Kalendraf]

Heh, and by that interpretation, a druid wildshaped into any of a number of animals suddenly finds his spellcasting is much more audible than it used to be. Creatures miles and miles away can tell he's squawk-chanting, or howling out some spell.

Cuts both ways.

Yes. I didn't mention it in my last post, but by the rules, that is exactly how it will work out. An elephant-shaped druid is going to be trumpeting and a grizzly-shaped druid will be growling, both extremely loudly. In those cases, they are definitely going to be even louder than a human(oid) caster would be.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Well, it's clear that you don't care that a druid who selects this feat and uses even half of his brain effectively gains an always-on invisibility.

I really can't argue with you after realising that.

 

[Teneb]

Always on invisibility? Hardly. I can still be spotted, quite easily if the opponents know to look for me. Anyone trained in magic knows flamestrikes only come from clerics or druids. If my party's cleric is fighting or doing something else and the flamestrikes keep a 'comin, then its pretty clear there's another caster around.

Look, I don't think anyone is arguing that Natural Spell isn't extremely powerful. However, Kalendraf is playing it by the rules as stated in the PHB (which I am understandably happy about), so please stop busting his chops. If you houserule it to tone it down in your campaign, great! We're playing it by the book, as it were. End of story.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Always on invisibility? Hardly. I can still be spotted, quite easily if the opponents know to look for me. Anyone trained in magic knows flamestrikes only come from clerics or druids. If my party's cleric is fighting or doing something else and the flamestrikes keep a 'comin, then its pretty clear there's another caster around.

At which point, it would seem, there's absolutely nothing they can do about it, because they won't be able to pick you out from the other animals. Unless there are no other animals any time you have a fight. It sounds like you're guaranteed not to be targeted in a fight, both from kalendraf's and your own explanations.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Saeviomagy,

Forget about Flame Strike for a moment.

What if I am a Druid wildshaped as a squirrel, and I try to Hide in the tree top. I cast Speak With Animals to get some info from some furry friends.

Alas, in spite of concealment, size, a modest distance mod, and some other bennies, I am still Spotted by a member of the King's Guard -- a few of them do have good Spot skills.

Should that Guardsman have automatic perfectly uerring knowledge that I just cast a spell?

 

[Staffan]

Automatically recognized by anyone?
Recognized by someone who doesn't know magic?
Recognized by a barbarian who has never seen magic?

The D&D game assumes that everyone knows that magic exists, and is at least passingly familiar with it. Even the smallest communities (thorps of 20-80 people) have:
50% chance of having an Adept of level 1-3.
50% chance of having a Bard of level 1-3.
50% chance of having a Cleric of level 1-3.
47.5% chance of having a Druid of level 1-3 and a 5% chance of having one of level 8-13 (with assorted lower-level ones).
5% chance of having a Ranger of level 8-10 (with assorted lower-level ones).
25% chance of having a 1st level sorcerer.
25% chance of having a 1st level wizard.

This works out to a 97% probability of a thorp having some sort of spellcaster around. And if the thorp you live in yourself doesn't have one, you can bet the one two miles over does.

I'll say the same as I did in the other thread: being wildshaped is a good reason to give a druid a surprise round in which to cast a spell. Once he has cast a spell (and been seen/heard), people will know that's what he did and that the "animal" is more than meets the eye. They might not know that the druid is a wild-shaped druid, per se, but they will be aware that the flame strike that just burned their buddy to a crisp co-incided with the squirrel casting a spell.

A better tactic would be for the druid to cast call lightning ahead of time. Calling down the bolts from that spell (or its big brother, call lightning storm) doesn't require any components, so there's nothing to connect the cat over there with the bolts of lightning that suddenly came out of nowhere.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

This works out to a 97% probability of a thorp having some sort of spellcaster around. And if the thorp you live in yourself doesn't have one, you can bet the one two miles over does.

Yes, you've shown that a thorp of 20 people is likely to have at least 10-15% of its population be spellcasters. Brilliant DMG writers, that's worse than the Forgotten !&%* Realms. I've posted on several other threads about how much I despise the DMG demographics (I'm still of the "12 paladins in the entire realm" school of thought, and the prevalence of paladins and monks in every friggin' town really bugs me). The rules are what they are, so I'll grant you that.

On the other hand, most DMs I know design and populate their own villages, towns, and cities without using the DMG, so YMMV. And seeing something does not translate into recognizing the real thing - I hear plenty of Spanish in daily life, but could be fooled into thinking "That sounds like Spanish" by someone faking it. Same for being fooled into "Those terms sound like biology" or "That sounds like a discussion of English poetry."

Taking another direction, then: would a druid casting with Natural Spell and Still Spell be recognized? No unnatural motions, only some squeaking or screeching. What about a druid with Silent Spell but not Still Spell? Are some forms better at camouflaging casting because they are expected to act erratically? Should there be a penalty to recognize a spell being cast at a distance? What about to recognize a Silent or Still spell? We know that Spellcraft cannot identify a Silent Still spell.

Understand, I'm not trying to boost the power of druids. I'm trying to boost the power and mystery of magic itself, whoever is casting it. Something WILL have to be done to balance Natural Spell if you allow it to camouflage casting to some degree, but I don't think untrained people should automatically recognize spellcasting in every situation.