Logic of being atheist in a default D&D campaign.

[Mason4444]

Hello Everyone, I'm a looooong tine lurker, always reading but finally decided to register so I can ask some questions and be social and stuff. How do you logically justify being atheist in a default D&D campaign(not-Planescape either)? Just some straight up plain vanilla Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms where everyone *knows* that there are gods that grant their clerics spells and favor to their followers? What about Krynn? Especially on Krynn, where if everyone knows that if you deny or defy the Gods they can leave or just literally throw a mountain down on your head. The reason I'm asking is because I'm thinking about starting up a new campaign but the PC's all seem to be a little morally bankrupt and none too religious and one outright atheist. But how does that really *work* in the D&D game? I mean, Clerics being given granted powers from their deity make sense in a way and solves some logic holes. Definitely explains why people choose to serve Good or Evil. But to me, it seems to create another problem -- that it would seem everyone would be choosing to follow a god and be very religious. Of course, then alignments would seem even more restrictive . I kind of liked how Lankhmar touched upon some of this. I know it's just a fantasy game and I'm probably over thinking all this, but I would be curious to hear others thoughts on this matter. I'm sure this has come up before and has probably already been answered.

 

[Umbran]

Well, there are a few lines one could take. They largely boil down to not questioning that power exists, but questioning where it comes from, or questioning the nature of the entities that provide power.

If the gods don't physically manifest, and people don't come back from the dead with clear and consistent memory of the afterlife, then an atheist could suppose that power comes from within the cleric, from focused faith, not from gods. This is supported in some editions by it being entirely legal for a cleric or other divine spellcaster to *not* follow a god. If someone can be a cleric, and do all things a cleric does, *without* a god, maybe the gods are all just stories.

Another form of atheism is to recognize that there are powerful entities that provide power for your devotion, but they aren't "gods". Just as there are peasants and commoners, and there are archmages, there are these other entities up the scale of power - but those entities didn't *make* the universe, or create living beings or the like, and have no more connection to morality and behavior than we give them. We wanted to believe in something, they saw that, and stepped in.

For the Forgotten Realms, for example, this second form is not far off the mark - there are gods, but there is Ao over the gods, and Ao has another master over him. And many of the races of Aber-Toril come from other worlds and planes, and were not created by any native gods.

 

[Morrus]

Yeah, I guess the logic has to be that you don't believe them to be gods, but merely powerful beings. That's the only thing that makes sense to me in a fantasy world like the FR.

 

[Janx]

could have sworn I'd seen a thread on this in the last year or so.

Bear in mind, as this topic touches Religion, it's risky for crossing the no-religion/politics rule. So best be mindful to stick to just "in-game" examples.

I think the simplest method of dealing with an Atheist in a world of obvious gods is to treat him like a heretic or village idiot.

It's one thing to refuse to worship Odin, the big guy with one eye who stopped by the village last week to fend off a frost giant attack.

It's another to deny Odin exists and that there was no big guy with one eye in the village last week despite the fact that everybody saw him.

Also consider, is the PC openly ridiculing the gods, trying to convert people to atheism? Or simply choosing not to express any in-game religious preference?

Outside of the game, consider what your players are looking for/expecting from their RPG. They may not care for religious considerations in their game.

Culturally, it may be a taboo subject. Us Minnesotans don't talk about our religion. When I got to Texas, I was surprised when strangers would ask me what church I went to while waiting in line at a restaurant. Right friendly conversation to them, deeply personal and political to a northerner in a southern state.

 

[Janx]

Yeah, I guess the logic has to be that you don't believe them to be gods, but merely powerful beings. That's the only thing that makes sense to me in a fantasy world like the FR.

this chain of logic always felt like arguing semantics over the meaning of the word "god"

I should think that for the sake of playing in a game of "Let's Pretend Odin and Thor are Real" that we could just take it at that and play are darned characters who know Odin and Thor are real.

 

[Aegir]

The Netheril period of Forgotten Realms can, in some ways, be called atheist. Most archmages believed Gods were just the next level of power from archmage, so while they saw them as powerful, they didnt believe them to be anything more than exceptionally powerful.

In Ptolus, the followers of Lothian believe that all other gods are demons: not lacking in power, but mostly out to harvest your soul.

That would seem to be the obvious difference: in the real world, atheists simply believe that God doesnt exist. In a fantasy setting, they simply dont believe they're Gods.

 

[Mason4444]

I certainly don't want this topic to degenerate into any kind of real world religious/political discussion or anything. I'm just trying to to make sense out of a game about magic and dragons!

Thanks for everyone who has given their thoughts on the matter. What still doesn't make any sense to me, would be the the 'casual believer' or the ones who only pay lip service to the gods. Say have a large village or town where most people worship Pelor and the Clerics help see to everyone's needs. I mean, wouldn't everyone eventually genuinely worship or be a cleric of Pelor until the goverrnment would basically be a Theocracy? Why aren't all governments Theocracies? I guess I'm looking for in game reasons. How would a couple of happy go lucky rogues justify raiding the temple of Paladine so they might have a night out on the town with their spoils (assuming they don't have kind religious thinking behind it whatsoever)?

 

[amerigoV]

Ancient Alien Astronaut Theorists suggest...it's Aliens!

 

[Celebrim]

1) The 'gods' are nothing of the sort. They are just more potent beings, but no more worthy of worship than a mortal.
2) The 'gods' are actually manifestations of collective human belief. They didn't make mortals; mortals made them. Collective disbelief would cause them to cease to exist.
3) The gods are just powerful monsters, and monsters are for killing.
4) Even if the gods do exist, so what? I don't serve a mortal king in this life, and I don't plan to serve an immortal one in the next.

Note that some of these things might actually believed by functional theists, as in, "Maybe the gods aren't worthy of worship and service, but I'd be willing to enter into a contractual relationship...", or, "It doesn't really matter that the gods are manifestations of collective belief, they are still worthy of worship."

 

[Celebrim]

Say have a large village or town where most people worship Pelor and the Clerics help see to everyone's needs. I mean, wouldn't everyone eventually genuinely worship or be a cleric of Pelor until the goverrnment would basically be a Theocracy? Why aren't all governments Theocracies? I guess I'm looking for in game reasons. How would a couple of happy go lucky rogues justify raiding the temple of Paladine so they might have a night out on the town with their spoils (assuming they don't have kind religious thinking behind it whatsoever)?

I always tell my players that a visitor from my world to Medieval Europe would be shocked at how little power was held by the Catholic Church.