logic of low POD sales?

[Dana_Jorgensen]

Please educate this ignorant savage: A link to printing and press technology information please?

Ignore it. fastlearner obviously doesn't bother paying any attention to what information he's ditributing. When was the last time you saw a laser printer that could print 39 x 28 inch sheets? In other words, the printer isn't your average desktop printer. They're purpose built laser printers that last I checked, were selling at around $50K. And you still need to spend about $800 for a plate processing machine in order to remove all the excess chemicals.

What fastlearner is erroneously pointing you to is essentially a desktop proofing system good for inexpensive low volume work done by a service bureau before a regular print run is arranged. They're also used for small run lithographic prints as well. Incidentally there's no such thing as "direct to paper plate" technology. Paper, even cardboard, will shred with the centrifugal forces generated by a running offset press, especially once they reach printing speeds of 3 pressings per second or more. Direct to plate technology involves printing to polymer or polyester plates.

 

[Dana_Jorgensen]

I recall at GenCon last year seeing my fellow E.N.Publishing folks selling gorgeous copies of Deadly Games, for less than $20. I think it might have been $16, for a ~100 page book. It was originally released as a pdf at RPGNow, and apparently someone did a print run. I wish I'd gotten one, actually.

You guys seem to be discussing trying to distribute POD books to stores. I always thought the benefit of POD is that you have a digital storefront, people see the book they want, browse a sample chapter, and buy a POD copy. You send them a pdf immediately, then print a copy and bind it (what, maybe 3 cents a page?), then ship it.

Now sure, at GenCon we were able to cut out the 'shipping' part of it, which probably would knock off $3 or more of the price, but still, I don't think using retailers and distributors is what PODs work best with. Please note, of course, that I've never dealt with the logistics of such an operation, so this might just be a pipe dream.

Actually, POD supposedly balances out in the end, after factoring in the costs of overhead and storage of a traditional print run of thousands of copies. And POD can compete with traditional printing on the retail level, provided you find an appropriate distributor (which RPGMall, unfortunately, is not). There have been a number of POD products that have reached retailers through the traditional channels over the last 8 years or so, and they have been competitively priced.

BTW, the retail price on the POD version of Deadly Games is $14.95.

 

[Fast Learner]

Ignore it. fastlearner obviously doesn't bother paying any attention to what information he's ditributing. When was the last time you saw a laser printer that could print 39 x 28 inch sheets? In other words, the printer isn't your average desktop printer. They're purpose built laser printers that last I checked, were selling at around $50K. And you still need to spend about $800 for a plate processing machine in order to remove all the excess chemicals.

Speaking of paying attention, just click on the link. How hard would that be? The very first item listed is 8.5 x 15. They even suggest you use an HP Laserjet 5000, a $1200 printer.

I've seen this very system in action. You?

What fastlearner is erroneously pointing you to is essentially a desktop proofing system good for inexpensive low volume work done by a service bureau before a regular print run is arranged. They're also used for small run lithographic prints as well.

"Obviously," huh? Try clicking the link. This system -- and several others like it, by the way -- are used for printing TONS of offset work, all the time, all over the world, today. Finished products. Your ignorance is stunning for someone speaking with such authority.

Incidentally there's no such thing as "direct to paper plate" technology. Paper, even cardboard, will shred with the centrifugal forces generated by a running offset press, especially once they reach printing speeds of 3 pressings per second or more. Direct to plate technology involves printing to polymer or polyester plates.

Again you're wrong. There is in fact a system like this that uses paper -- not polymer -- plates. I saw it at a print show just last year. Max print run was 2500, and it's designed for those "1000 flyers" types of print jobs.

Where precisely does your "knowledge" come from? Y'know, it might stun the hell out of you but technology has actually changed in the last 20 years.

[EDITED to remove some of my snark.]

 

[RangerWickett]

To everyone in this thread, please, please, don't throw insults. A few people here are being a bit more inflammatory than necessary in several threads now, and there are much better ways to discuss a subject than to call someone ignorant. Please, try to use a little more civility, everyone.

 

[Fast Learner]

Must have been a bad afternoon... I don't tend to respond that way when being snarked at. Sorry about that, and I edited it to remove a lot of the flamey bits.

 

[The Sigil]

Speaking of paying attention, just click on the link.
[EDITED to remove some of my snark.]

Thanks for the edit. I was going to remind everyone that this is a good way to get a thread locked.

--The Sigil

 

[Dana_Jorgensen]

Speaking of paying attention, just click on the link. How hard would that be? The very first item listed is 8.5 x 15. They even suggest you use an HP Laserjet 5000, a $1200 printer.

I've seen this very system in action. You?

Yes, and I wasn't impressed with the results when the reached the press room. They work fine on a hand cranked sheetfed offset press, but I have yet to meet anyone satisfied with the results when they've tried that nonsense with a real web press system.

"Obviously," huh? Try clicking the link. This system -- and several others like it, by the way -- are used for printing TONS of offset work, all the time, all over the world, today. Finished products. Your ignorance is stunning for someone speaking with such authority.

I've seen the result. as I said, it's a perfectly valid solution for lithography and other short run or limited edition type work. They are not suitable for anything over a few hundred units. The time consumed exceeding that makes the work cost prohibitive.

Again you're wrong. There is in fact a system like this that uses paper -- not polymer -- plates. I saw it at a print show just last year. Max print run was 2500, and it's designed for those "1000 flyers" types of print jobs.

Yeah, I've seen them too. They've been around since about 1935. It's called an electrostatic mimeograph machine.

Where precisely does your "knowledge" come from? Y'know, it might stun the hell out of you but technology has actually changed in the last 20 years.

I've had extensive work experience on and off over the last 20 years, in all aspects of the field. My education in the field started when I was 14, working in what would end up being my future father-in-law's print shop, printing everything from newspapers to TV guides to magazines to semester catalogs for colleges to... well, just about everything that wasn't a form or single page flyer.

 

[HinterWelt]

Just as someone who has sold POD books through distribution, direct off our site and through RPGMall, we have no problems or complaints from customers or retailers. At GTS this year retailers could not tell our POD title from our traditional runs. The cost on our 320 page 8.5x11 glossy cover B&W interior book was about $7. We sold through the initial 400 (less about 30) and have pulled on LSI to create more as needed. Essentially, I think the issue is picking you printer. All to often it is price that determines the printer and people forget to ask for and check the samples.

As for a comment on the GAMA made up thread, go to agree. I was a member as a retailer and for one year as a manufacturer. It just does not pay. I asked them what did I get as a member and they had the audacity to say I was supporting the expansion o fthe industry. Blech.

As for the GPA, I hate to disagree but they have gotten us discount booths are Origins and GenCon, representation there, discount ads in their programs, and lots of very good advice. Yes, there is static but there is static everywhere. For the money, I whole heartedly recommend the GPA.

As for why they are not forming a POD company, well, in GAMA's situation it is not in their interest. They do not just service the big industry (WOTC is not even a VM) butthey sure are not concerned with the small guy. The GPA is just not in the business of printing. I personally look to companies like Booksurge and LSI to do POD and do it well.

There are plenty of people out there running their POD printing company out of their basement. If you want to be a printer then go do it. I would rather write.

Just thought I would chime in.

Bill

 

[mroberon1972]

Just as someone who has sold POD books through distribution, direct off our site and through RPGMall, we have no problems or complaints from customers or retailers. At GTS this year retailers could not tell our POD title from our traditional runs. The cost on our 320 page 8.5x11 glossy cover B&W interior book was about $7. We sold through the initial 400 (less about 30) and have pulled on LSI to create more as needed. Essentially, I think the issue is picking you printer. All to often it is price that determines the printer and people forget to ask for and check the samples.

As for a comment on the GAMA made up thread, go to agree. I was a member as a retailer and for one year as a manufacturer. It just does not pay. I asked them what did I get as a member and they had the audacity to say I was supporting the expansion o fthe industry. Blech.

As for the GPA, I hate to disagree but they have gotten us discount booths are Origins and GenCon, representation there, discount ads in their programs, and lots of very good advice. Yes, there is static but there is static everywhere. For the money, I whole heartedly recommend the GPA.

As for why they are not forming a POD company, well, in GAMA's situation it is not in their interest. They do not just service the big industry (WOTC is not even a VM) butthey sure are not concerned with the small guy. The GPA is just not in the business of printing. I personally look to companies like Booksurge and LSI to do POD and do it well.

There are plenty of people out there running their POD printing company out of their basement. If you want to be a printer then go do it. I would rather write.

Just thought I would chime in.

Bill

I didn't think RPGMall offered glossy covers.

 

[madelf]

I think I'm agreeing with Hinterwelt (funny how often that happens). I don't think I want to be a printer.



It seemed intriguing at first impression, but with 10 grand in equipment and work space for a set-up that isn't fast enough to act as a POD provider to others... it just doesn't make sense. Just to get my stuff out... I can buy a lot of professional printing for 10 grand.

I also wanted to point out that there's POD and there's POD. There's the low-run print houses that can get you a few hundred copies for a reasonable up-front cost. That's really not what I was thinking of when I brought up the question.

There's also the places (like lulu.com) that will print as little as one book at a time, with no upfront setup costs, no warehousing, no shipping costs out of pocket, no expense at all except what is taken out of the sale. Now that is every bit as easy as PDF. And the quality is good. (I ordered a copy of my playtest edition as a trial run and it is a good looking book. It seems pretty tough. It looks every bit as good as most of the other paperbacks sitting on my shelf. I was impressed) The base price per copy is a good bit steeper than the several hundred copy route, making it a poor choice for trying to send through traditional distribution, but for on-line sales there's room for a modest mark-up without being over-priced in comparison to other books.

With that sort of service available, I'm amazed that it isn't being used more than it seems to be. Even the RPGnow/mall service seems pretty good (though I haven't seen one of their books). So what I'm trying to figure out is why every publisher releasing a PDF product isn't releasing it in POD as well. It seems like a no-lose situation. If it doesn't sell, you're not out a dime. If it does, you're making money.