logic of low POD sales?

Sir Whiskers said:
As an example, Sidewinder: Recoiled is $37.00 POD. Should I buy that, sight unseen, or spend my money (say $39.95) on a hardback book I can first leaf through at the store? I understand that even at $37 the publisher probably isn't making much gross profit, but my buying decisions are based on how much value the product has for me, not how much I'd like to help out a publisher.

The reason for that price is that, likely, the publisher is getting seriously hosed over by whatever POD company they are using. If not done right, POD can't be done for a reasonable price.

Sounds like the maker of the POD book should have done more homework on the industry.
 

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Dimwhit said:
The reason for that price is that, likely, the publisher is getting seriously hosed over by whatever POD company they are using. If not done right, POD can't be done for a reasonable price.

Sounds like the maker of the POD book should have done more homework on the industry.

Well, the fact that it's 300 pages probably factors into the price too. :)
 

Sir Whiskers said:
Well, the fact that it's 300 pages probably factors into the price too. :)

Not as much as you'd think. The differenct in price between a 50 page book and a 300 page book should only be a couple/few dollars. We pay something like 1.3 cents per page, plus base cost. So that would be about $3 more for that large a book (I'm assuming b/w interior). Granted, I don't know what kind of cover it has and other things, but if they are paying more than $12 or $13 to print a copy, I suspect they're getting hosed.

But, again, I don't know all the details.

EDIT: It's also common for POD companies to set the cover price, not the publisher. And for those books, they tend to be quite expensive.
 
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Well, since Sidewinder has been brought into this conversation, perhaps I can shed some light on why it’s priced the way it is. And in doing so perhaps this will help others thinking about whether they should offer POD’s or stick strictly to PDF’s.

First off let me start off by saying that we originally hadn’t planned on offering S:R as a POD. However, shortly after we announced that we were working on Recoiled, we immediately began to receive requests for a “real book” version. All for the usual reasons, “I don’t like PDF’s… I want a real book to pass around the table…etc.” and of course the real kicker “I won’t buy a PDF.” So of course, we knew that we would have to offer some kind of physical book, if for no other reason than as a service. But if we were going to have a real book, we wanted to be the best that we could realistically afford. So, the gang here at the Dog House took a long hard look at the industry, our product, and what part of the market it would serve. Then we came up with what we hoped were some reasonable expectations of how many people would be interested in a Western based on D20Modern without Zombies or FX. Then we cut those numbers by 75%. Now began the real research and questions, and what do you suppose we did? Why, we "figure(d) out what the cost of our product would be." and "honestly compare(d) the product's value to three(+) other normal products on the market at the same price point."

One of the first things we confirmed is that RPGmall would require a larger margin on POD's than RPGnow does on PDF's. No surprise there, simple standard business model with the standard trade margin of 40% on books. So now began the calculations, and in the interest of open dialogue, I’m going to do something darn few people have done. I’m going to “open the books” to the public. No “theoretical” numbers pulled out of thin air. The real deal.

Working backwards:
Retail cost $37.50
- RPGmall’s margin (37.50 x.40) - $15.00
- Printing Cost - $13.00
_______
DHR’s Gross $9.50

(As has been pointed out S:R is just a shade under 300 pages (292 to be exact) with a full color cover, black & white interior.)

Out of that $9.50, we of course still have to cover our business expenses and set some aside to build up the capital for future projects. Then, whatever remains is divided between the 5 of us.

Have you ever wondered why there seem to be so many "one shot wonders" that have put out good, quality products and then "disappeared" without any follow-up publications? Well, it could very well be that, in their initial "we'll set the gaming world on fire, and sell lots and lots of these" exuberance and high-expectations they priced their initial product too low, figuring that the volume of their sales would make up for the low-margin they set for themselves. And when that volume never materialized, they were left with a stack of bills, or an empty bank account. So now, financially strapped and artistically disappointed, they said "I give up" -- Exit stage left. Well, that sure doesn’t fit into our long-term plans.

So we priced our POD at what we consider a "fair price." A price that would generate just enough "profit and capital" to be encouraging, while still being competitive.

But what about the print quality? i.e."A friend picked up a POD book for me and my immediate reaction was that it was well done, but not that much better than what I could have done at work (I worked at a copy center at the time)." Well, the top-end production quality of POD’s has changed dramatically in just the last 5 years, so maybe someone with practical experience and the equipment could print it at the same quality and price, but the majority of gamers out there couldn't and even then only a few copy shops offer perfect binding. However, for those that want to go this route, there is always the PDF (Oh, wait. That won’t quite work either. Why? Because the PDF was compiled for best on screen viewing quality/ to smallest file size ratio, coming in at 12.5 megs, while the files sent to the printer were maximized for the best possible print quality regardless of file size, and came in at over 42 megs). We compared the quality of the S:R POD to normal books at the local FLGS. And, while a few do have better bindings and print, many don't. Which should not come as a surprise, considering the dozens, if not hundreds, of threads we have seen bemoaning the poor physical quality of RPG books. This perception of "inferior quality" and "I can do it just as well myself at the copy shop" unfortunately may be the last great hurdle for POD's. Only time will tell.

Finally, my last point: After we took all of these factors into account we asked ourselves one last question, because, even being the cynical fellows we are, we do have a plan and a "vision". How would our POD price compare to what S:R would sell for if we managed to partner with one of the "Big Boys"? How can we make sure that we won’t be selling it so low that a major publisher won’t want to touch it? Will they have any room to set a price that won’t cause the gaming public to say, “Why buy the XYZ version from the FLGS when I can get it online for so much cheaper?” Well, I'd say we hit it pretty darn close.


Thomas L. Gregory
 

Fate Lawson said:
All that stuff...
Thomas L. Gregory

Thanks Thomas! That's some great information. Mind if I ask a follow-up? I'm really interesting, particularly, in the printing costs. Is the cover hardback or soft cover? I'm assuming, somewhere near an 8 1/2x11 paper size, right?

Interesting price points. RPGmall is definitely taking a large chunk, but not unreasonably so. We give distributors (like Amazon.com) a 25% discount (instead of 40%), which is the smallest possible. (Probably why our novels aren't discounted any further by Amazon.) We also don't have as high a profit margin on a book as you, but our expenses are much less.

Anyway, that's for the detail. Interesting stuff.
 

Dimwhit said:
Thanks Thomas! That's some great information. Mind if I ask a follow-up? I'm really interesting, particularly, in the printing costs. Is the cover hardback or soft cover? I'm assuming, somewhere near an 8 1/2x11 paper size, right?

Interesting price points. RPGmall is definitely taking a large chunk, but not unreasonably so. We give distributors (like Amazon.com) a 25% discount (instead of 40%), which is the smallest possible. (Probably why our novels aren't discounted any further by Amazon.) We also don't have as high a profit margin on a book as you, but our expenses are much less.

Anyway, that's for the detail. Interesting stuff.

As long as you don't mind answering a few yourself. You mention "we" and "partners" and "our novels". Which company and/or products are we talking about?

As to the physical specs. 8 1/2 x 11, Softcover, satin-gloss finish (think AEG, MEG, ENWorld Publishing, MGP's Quint series)
 

Hmm, Tales of Gaea cost us $6.32 through LSI. It is 322 pages, B&W interior, soft cover glossy. Our MSRP is $30. We make about $5/book through distro and considerably more through RPGMall.

Who did the printing for Sidewinder if I may ask?

Bill
 
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We went directly through RPGmall. But, again I must say, POD was/is a temporary short-term choice for us. If Green Ronin hadn't snapped up Sidewinder: Recoiled so fast :D , we would have looked into a long-term medium-run printing commitment. You seem to have had a lot better experience with LSI than I have had. However, I will say my experience wasn't as a publisher, but rather as a retailer in a time-sensitive environment. Translation: As a college bookstore manager, the few times I happened to need a book that was being POD'ed (is that a word? It is now!) through LSI it was usually half way into the term before I saw it, and their customer service was less than helpful. But, maybe they have improved with age.
 
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Fate Lawson said:
As long as you don't mind answering a few yourself. You mention "we" and "partners" and "our novels". Which company and/or products are we talking about?

As to the physical specs. 8 1/2 x 11, Softcover, satin-gloss finish (think AEG, MEG, ENWorld Publishing, MGP's Quint series)

Fair enough. I run the e-zine here. We have a couple/few novels published with more planned. Not directly RPG, but fantasy nonetheless. :)

Thanks for the info, btw!
 

Fate Lawson said:
You seem to have had a lot better experience with LSI than I have had. However, I will say my experience wasn't as a publisher, but rather as a retailer in a time-sensitive environment. Translation: As a college bookstore manager, the few times I happened to need a book that was being POD'ed (is that a word? It is now!) through LSI it was usually half way into the term before I saw it, and their customer service was less than helpful. But, maybe they have improved with age.
No, it has not. LSI is just the cheapest with the best quality. I much prefer Booksurge but they are set up more as a small print run type printer as opposed to true POD (aka. one at a time printing). LSI is a true pain to work with but they do produce quality books, at least in my experience.

Thanks,
Bill
 

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