Logistics of staking a vampire?

[azhrei_fje]

Along similar lines, you can't stake a vampire through the heart during combat. The logic behind this is roughly akin to why you can't try to, say, cut someone's head off or otherwise make a "called shot" (as noted above). The combat system simply doesn't support this cleanly.

How about a vorpal stake?! Then it's similar to a vorpal sword in terms of being an insta-kill.

Or maybe the stake has to be vampire bane (not just undead bane) to gain the insta-kill ability?

I'm just thinking out loud about some various options that I hadn't seen presented yet...

 

[Thurbane]

Mr. Pointy: +2 Keen Stake of Vampire Slaying - any called shot on a vampire invokes a True Strike effect (+20 to hit)...

 

[Sejs]

Vampires are immune to critical hits, and hence, trying to stake one with a critical hit won't work, even if you have such house rules in place. Put it in the same category as "I cut off his head!"

Actually this kind of harkens back to the argument of 'just because you're immune to the effects of X doesn't mean X did not happen'. Undead (etc) are immune to crits. They take no extra damage from critical hits. But you have an item, such as a mace of smiting, that activates on a critical hit. What happens?

So as it stands you can crit them. You can crit them all the live-long day. It just doesn't normally do anything special (unless you've got a crit-sensative dohicky).

 

[Alzrius]

As I recall, Dungeon #84's (3E) adventure "The Dying of the Light" had rules on staking vampires in combat, so there's at least one official answer on this already, though I won't vouch for how good those rules are.

 

[pawsplay]

Actually this kind of harkens back to the argument of 'just because you're immune to the effects of X doesn't mean X did not happen'. Undead (etc) are immune to crits. They take no extra damage from critical hits. But you have an item, such as a mace of smiting, that activates on a critical hit. What happens?

So as it stands you can crit them. You can crit them all the live-long day. It just doesn't normally do anything special (unless you've got a crit-sensative dohicky).

Well, riht, but we were talking specifically about something that would deal a kind of critical hit. The point is, vampires can be staked, but they don't have weak points, per se. Thus, it would actually make little sense for them to be stakeable in combat. Vampires, in D&D, are very resilient and can take all kinds of punishment. It just so happens that driving a stake into one's heart renders them powerless.

I'm trying to visualize driving a sharp stick through the chest and into the heart of a supernaturally tough vampire... just doing it to a normal person would be a trick, I think. And it has to stay in. I'm thinking your best bet is a spell that shoots a vampire in the heart with a stake.

 

[Iku Rex]

pawsplay, exactly what is it you're arguing here? I can't make sense of it.

Are you objecting to the idea that one could make a house rule to cover staking a vampire in combat? On account of how you can't imagine it happening?!

 

[Sejs]

Well, riht, but we were talking specifically about something that would deal a kind of critical hit. The point is, vampires can be staked, but they don't have weak points, per se. Thus, it would actually make little sense for them to be stakeable in combat. Vampires, in D&D, are very resilient and can take all kinds of punishment. It just so happens that driving a stake into one's heart renders them powerless.

I'm trying to visualize driving a sharp stick through the chest and into the heart of a supernaturally tough vampire... just doing it to a normal person would be a trick, I think. And it has to stay in. I'm thinking your best bet is a spell that shoots a vampire in the heart with a stake.

The first thing that comes to mind there would be to fiddle with their DR, such that a wooden, piercing weapon also bypasses it, but that's getting into a whole 'nother area.

 

[pawsplay]

pawsplay, exactly what is it you're arguing here? I can't make sense of it.

Are you objecting to the idea that one could make a house rule to cover staking a vampire in combat? On account of how you can't imagine it happening?!

How difficult do you think it is to drive a sharp stick right through someone's chest into their heart? Now, how hard do you think it is to do the same thing to something with DR and no Con score? I imagine it would be like trying to stab a brick.

 

[Iku Rex]

How difficult do you think it is to drive a sharp stick right through someone's chest into their heart?

Pretty hard. Like I said a few posts ago in this thread: Staking a vampire in combat should be very difficult. If the players insisted on going for the perfect strike I'd give the vampire increased AC and/or a miss chance to hit to reflect the added difficulty of hitting the heart.

Now, how hard do you think it is to do the same thing to something with DR and no Con score? I imagine it would be like trying to stab a brick.

Not really. No Con score does not make the creature's body harder. And DR can easily mean "wounds heal immediately". In fact, the first example of damage reduction in the DMG (291) is a vampire instantly healing a wound from an arrow. Even if a DM rules that the vampire's DR represents near impenetrable skin that's hardly a rules problem. Just subtract 10 from the damage, as with every other (non-magic/silver) attack. :\

 

[Justin Bacon]

What are the d20 3.5e logistics for staking a vampire through the heart with a wooden stake? The (obvious?) assumption here is that the vampire is awake.

As others in the thread have already pointed, by-the-book you can't make such a called shot (and there are good reasons why you shouldn't special case a set of rules just for vampires).

I do have a called shot mechanic I've been playtesting and adjusting. Basically, it's a version of the Massive Damage Threshold rules:

(1) If you want to make a called shot in order to increase damage ("I shoot him in the head!"), then you use a mechanic similar to Power Attack: You accept a -2 penalty to your attack roll for a +1 bonus to damage (with the maximum bonus to damage being equal to your BAB).

(2) If you want to make a called shot in order to produce a specific effect (crippling someone by shooting them in the leg, for example) you make your attack normally. If the damage from the attack exceeds a called shot threshold of 10 + the target's HD, the target must make a Fortitude save vs. DC 10 + damage. If the save is failed, the special effect is achieved (in addition to inflicting damage normally).

I've also gotten rid of the Ranged Disarm feat and replaced them with mechanics for doing that. And I'm trying to decide if I want to include a "I try to shoot them in a way which is less likely to be lethal, but more likely to incapacitate them" mechanic.

Anyway, it still needs some fine-tuning.

However, if I was looking to emulate Buffy-style vampire fights -- where getting staked seems to be a meaningful Achilles' heel with the vampires -- I'd probably use a mechanic like that to simulate it: If you exceed threshold X, have the vamp make a Fort save to avoid the staking. (Or Reflex save? Your call.)