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Loki! (spoiler thread)

I know nothing about Kang from the comics, and only his basic background info that I read in spoiler articles, and I had no problems with the entire series or the final episode. There was also the fact that for many months before this it was publicly known that Jonathan Majors would be playing Kang in the 3rd Ant-man movie. So as soon as he was on-screen in the final episode, boom, instant connection to the rest of the MCU.
A connection based on some meta knowledge about who has hired for what and speculation about future of the franchise! An actual narrative connection would be something that was established in the show itself or at least in the MCU as a whole.
 

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embee

Lawyer by day. Rules lawyer by night.
Mobius doesn't get a jetski

7703826-8490640621-Aveng.jpg


I mean, it's not like Loki doesn't know where to get a nice jetski....
 

Janx

Hero
Yeah, narratively speaking, the biggest overall problem the MCU generally has is that its stories are always so busy setting up other stories, that it often misses satisfying beats. The entire last episode had the purpose of setting up Kang (for Loki Season 2, and for appearances in movies), rather than what's dramatically interesting for Loki.
along the lessons from writing train of thought, defeating Kang can't be Loki's big finish in season 2, either, because he's slated for the movies. So Loki's going to get screwed again.

The narratively consistent aspect is the premise the show raised, that Loki exists to instigate actual heroes to be their best. Loki unleashed the next villain for the heroes. Literally, the solution to the new villain from Loki will not occur within Loki's show.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
The narratively consistent aspect is the premise the show raised, that Loki exists to instigate actual heroes to be their best. Loki unleashed the next villain for the heroes. Literally, the solution to the new villain from Loki will not occur within Loki's show.

Good point. Many people complain that Loki wasn't much of a trickster in this series, because he didn't play many tricks on people. However, mythologically, the Trickster is often as you say - the instigator, the agent of change.
 

Rabulias

Legend
But, it might be downright Strange for him not to appear in Multiverse of Madness.
I saw what you did there! ;)
The narratively consistent aspect is the premise the show raised, that Loki exists to instigate actual heroes to be their best. Loki unleashed the next villain for the heroes. Literally, the solution to the new villain from Loki will not occur within Loki's show.
Ooh, nice observation! Loki heralded the arrival of Thanos into the MCU in Avengers, so it's only fitting that he introduce Kang.
 

Janx

Hero
Good point. Many people complain that Loki wasn't much of a trickster in this series, because he didn't play many tricks on people. However, mythologically, the Trickster is often as you say - the instigator, the agent of change.
Thanks. Working on honing my story analysis skills as I my own understanding of the craft is hopefully getting better.

I'm not sure how he got branded as a Trickster, based on the myths. He is very much a flipside to Odin. Both are happy to screw others over to get what they want.

It's possible we have misinterpreted Trickster (or whatever word was used in the Eddas). I got that idea from something Neil Stephensen wrote in describing Athena, goddess of craft. her surmised craft didn't mean knitting and macrame, but craft as in guile. it could be Trickster has a similiar misunderstanding.
 

Stalker0

Legend
The thing I found lacking was the lack of closure. Mobius doesn't get a jetski. Loki doesn't get his goal, love, or reward. Silvie got her revenge. That's it. One could argue this is the true Middle Climax. the cliffhanger and fall. That Loki now knows himself, and next season will be him climbing toward victory for the Climactic ending.
Yeah. Honestly it might have better optics if they had simply said this was the mid season finale, and the second half of the season is coming next year. That optically gives you a little more space to leave things open, no one excepts any closure at the mid season, so you remove any of that concern.

Perhaps they want the second season to include aspects of the upcoming movies, so in that case it makes more sense to "cut" at season 1, have other stuff happen in various movies, than come back and include the results of those movies in your second season.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
I'm not sure how he got branded as a Trickster, based on the myths.

So, how about the building of Valhalla and the origin of Sleipnir? A workman is building the great hall, on a deadline, so Loki turns into a mare to lure away the workman's horse (the horse is named Svadilfari, the workman is not named), so the workman finishes late and the gods don't have to pay. The workman goes into a rage (turns out, the workman's a giant), that they call on Thor, who pays the workman's wages with a hammer to the head. The mare-Loki gives birth to Sleipnir, who Odin takes as his steed...

Or, how about... the death of Baldur? He tricks Hodr, who is blind, into throwing the dart that slays Baldur, which eventually sets off Ragnarok...

Seems pretty tricksy to me.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
So, how about the building of Valhalla and the origin of Sleipnir? A workman is building the great hall, on a deadline, so Loki turns into a mare to lure away the workman's horse (the horse is named Svadilfari, the workman is not named), so the workman finishes late and the gods don't have to pay. The workman goes into a rage (turns out, the workman's a giant), that they call on Thor, who pays the workman's wages with a hammer to the head. The mare-Loki gives birth to Sleipnir, who Odin takes as his steed...

Or, how about... the death of Baldur? He tricks Hodr, who is blind, into throwing the dart that slays Baldur, which eventually sets off Ragnarok...

Seems pretty tricksy to me.
yeah, we've become use to the word Trick being about jovial little pranks, when in older societies the Trickster was generally a character whose actions were antisocial and often resulted in someone dying and/or getting eaten - its not a coincidence that Trickster were associated with Snakes, Foxes, Coyotes and Spiders all animals that can kill with stealth (in Faroese Lokkanet is the term used for Spiderweb)
 

Janx

Hero
yeah, we've become use to the word Trick being about jovial little pranks, when in older societies the Trickster was generally a character whose actions were antisocial and often resulted in someone dying and/or getting eaten - its not a coincidence that Trickster were associated with Snakes, Foxes, Coyotes and Spiders all animals that can kill with stealth (in Faroese Lokkanet is the term used for Spiderweb)
yeah, is more of what I was thinking.
 

Argyle King

Legend
The more I think about the show, the less I think that I like it.

A lot of aspects of it are fun and interesting. But I also find that I dislike how things added through this show change the MCU (past and future) as a whole.

Going forward, the MCU seems to be focusing on time-travel and shapeshifters as ways to re-write things. Both are personal pet peeves of mine when it comes to shows and movies, so I think I'm in the minority of people who has an overall less-good opinion of where the MCU will be going in the future.

I imagine I'll still watch many of the movies, but my enthusiasm isn't as high as it was before.
 


Stalker0

Legend
I will say thst Mauler (he does the unbridled rage videos on YouTube that deconstruct various movies).

he did a fun side by side, showing Loki battling in previous movies vs in the Loki show. I knew Loki was looking weak but man when you see it side by side he really is pathetically weak compared to early incarnations
 

I will say thst Mauler (he does the unbridled rage videos on YouTube that deconstruct various movies).

he did a fun side by side, showing Loki battling in previous movies vs in the Loki show. I knew Loki was looking weak but man when you see it side by side he really is pathetically weak compared to early incarnations
That bugged me too. Like they seemed to completely forget that he is supposed to have super strength and has hard time dealing with normal humans. o_O
 

Staffan

Legend
That's a thing that's bugged me since Ragnarok at least. Asgardians are supposed to be inherently super-strong. Not Thor-level strength, but at least "throw cars around easily" strength. I'm pretty sure this is established in Thor 1, and we see this a couple of times in Agents of SHIELD, but the Asgardian refugees in Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War seem to be completely defenseless.

And yes, the obvious counter is "But Loki is a frost giant, not an Asgardian". But frost giants seem to have similar physical abilities as Asgardians, and if Loki was significantly weaker than his Asgardian peers it would have been pretty obvious that something was up with him much sooner.
 

That's a thing that's bugged me since Ragnarok at least. Asgardians are supposed to be inherently super-strong. Not Thor-level strength, but at least "throw cars around easily" strength. I'm pretty sure this is established in Thor 1, and we see this a couple of times in Agents of SHIELD, but the Asgardian refugees in Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War seem to be completely defenseless.

And yes, the obvious counter is "But Loki is a frost giant, not an Asgardian". But frost giants seem to have similar physical abilities as Asgardians, and if Loki was significantly weaker than his Asgardian peers it would have been pretty obvious that something was up with him much sooner.

Loki is also the "runt of the litter" when if comes to Frost Giants. And, at least in the MCU, he is scrawnier than almost all the Asgardians. This is part of why he learns to use agility and wit and tricks to stay alive and succeed in Asgard. Also, while it is not a big difference, variant Loki is from the end of the first Avengers movie, so he does not have the skills and knowledge the main timeline Loki gained over several more movies. He should be a little weaker and less skilled than the original.
 

Loki is also the "runt of the litter" when if comes to Frost Giants. And, at least in the MCU, he is scrawnier than almost all the Asgardians. This is part of why he learns to use agility and wit and tricks to stay alive and succeed in Asgard. Also, while it is not a big difference, variant Loki is from the end of the first Avengers movie, so he does not have the skills and knowledge the main timeline Loki gained over several more movies. He should be a little weaker and less skilled than the original.
In Avengers he casually beats captain America in physical fight. He seems to be far stronger.
 

Staffan

Legend
Loki is also the "runt of the litter" when if comes to Frost Giants. And, at least in the MCU, he is scrawnier than almost all the Asgardians. This is part of why he learns to use agility and wit and tricks to stay alive and succeed in Asgard. Also, while it is not a big difference, variant Loki is from the end of the first Avengers movie, so he does not have the skills and knowledge the main timeline Loki gained over several more movies. He should be a little weaker and less skilled than the original.
Weak for an asgardian, yes. But that should still be an order of magnitude stronger than a human.
 

MarkB

Legend
That's a thing that's bugged me since Ragnarok at least. Asgardians are supposed to be inherently super-strong. Not Thor-level strength, but at least "throw cars around easily" strength. I'm pretty sure this is established in Thor 1, and we see this a couple of times in Agents of SHIELD, but the Asgardian refugees in Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War seem to be completely defenseless.
Hela drew her power from Asgard. Maybe that's true to a small extent for all Asgardians, and the loss of their homeworld did diminish them.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That's a thing that's bugged me since Ragnarok at least. Asgardians are supposed to be inherently super-strong. Not Thor-level strength, but at least "throw cars around easily" strength. I'm pretty sure this is established in Thor 1, and we see this a couple of times in Agents of SHIELD, but the Asgardian refugees in Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War seem to be completely defenseless.

And yes, the obvious counter is "But Loki is a frost giant, not an Asgardian". But frost giants seem to have similar physical abilities as Asgardians, and if Loki was significantly weaker than his Asgardian peers it would have been pretty obvious that something was up with him much sooner.
The Asgardian gods are supposed to be that strong. The Asgardian commoners are a bit stronger on average than humans.
 

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