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Loki! (spoiler thread)

Staffan

Legend
The Asgardian gods are supposed to be that strong. The Asgardian commoners are a bit stronger on average than humans.
Over on Agents of SHIELD, we see an Asgardian commoner casually catch a knife blade with his bare hand and bend the knife, and then easily break out of handcuffs. In another episode, we see Lorelei casually punch a dude so he goes flying several meters, and Sif kick a pretty big mobile home across a parking lot in order to provide cover. I don't know where Lorelei and Sif rank on the Asgardian power level scale, but I'm pretty sure they're nowhere near the top.

And in Avengers, Loki doesn't really have any trouble kicking America's ass until Iron Man shows up. And I'm pretty sure Captain America is supposed to be a significantly better fighter than TVA no-names and random train guards.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Hela drew her power from Asgard. Maybe that's true to a small extent for all Asgardians, and the loss of their homeworld did diminish them.

So, the real explanation is simpler: The MCU is not a consistent simulation of an objective world/universe.

For the entire history of comics, the power and abilities of characters varies from author to author, from one time to another, and from one story to another. Broadly, character power levels are not fit to a consistent objective standard, but to fit the type of story being told at the time. Trying to compare between the high-power action of the Avengers movie, and the grittier take of the Loki series, is folly.
 

MarkB

Legend
So, the real explanation is simpler: The MCU is not a consistent simulation of an objective world/universe.
I wasn't trying to provide the real-world explanation. It's always fun to try and come up with an in-universe explanation for such things, even when the real explanation is obviously an oversight or careless writing.

There's even a tradition of it in the comics' letters pages, with fans encouraged to come up with in-universe explanations for mistakes or inconsistencies in return for the valuable reward of a no-prize.
 

So, the real explanation is simpler: The MCU is not a consistent simulation of an objective world/universe.

For the entire history of comics, the power and abilities of characters varies from author to author, from one time to another, and from one story to another. Broadly, character power levels are not fit to a consistent objective standard, but to fit the type of story being told at the time. Trying to compare between the high-power action of the Avengers movie, and the grittier take of the Loki series, is folly.
True. Still, I feel it improves the immersion to the fictional world if it is consistent. Sure, it is common for superheroes/magical beings/etc to have their powers work in the way the plot currently demands, but I don't think that's a good thing.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
There's even a tradition of it in the comics' letters pages, with fans encouraged to come up with in-universe explanations for mistakes or inconsistencies in return for the valuable reward of a no-prize.

I'm aware. But No-Prizes are usually for discrete and specific continuity errors, not for general "he seems less strong" complaints.

And, if you want a no-prize, it helps to not make your answer something that would have impact outside the comic in question. For example, invoking the loss of Asgard has the implication that every Asgardian will have lost strength for that reason - and we'd have to ask why Thor wasn't a weakling when he went after Thanos with Stormbreaker?

A better no-prize answer is probably that TVA Agents are enhanced up to, say, base Asgardian levels.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Sure, it is common for superheroes/magical beings/etc to have their powers work in the way the plot currently demands, but I don't think that's a good thing.

I think it is a wonderful thing, because it allows characters to be used in more kinds of stories.

"Strong guy," isn't even a major line in Loki's portfolio, like it is for Hulk or Thor. His physical strength is not central to how he deals with the world, because however strong he is compared to humans, he's not strong compared to the people he grew up with - Asgardians.
 

I think it is a wonderful thing, because it allows characters to be used in more kinds of stories.
I'm sure different people feel differently about this. But to me such inconsistencies draw the attention to the artificiality of all it and lessen my immersion. Can the hero do the thing? Depends on how it is easiest to write the story. And sure, it is ultimately all made up, but keeping things consistent helps to pretend it is real and makes the perils feel more real. It allows us to pretend the success is due the skills, power and cunning of the hero and forget it is actually due the whims of the writer.

In more realistic real world setting we automatically know a lot of things. We know that humans can be threatened by guns and that they cannot stop a speeding car by bare hands. But this may not be the case in more fantastic setting, so these things actually need to be established in order the storytelling to work.

"Strong guy," isn't even a major line in Loki's portfolio, like it is for Hulk or Thor. His physical strength is not central to how he deals with the world, because however strong he is compared to humans, he's not strong compared to the people he grew up with - Asgardians.
Yes, and that's why it is actually interesting that he has that capability.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
I'm sure different people feel differently about this. But to me such inconsistencies draw the attention to the artificiality of all it and lessen my immersion. Can the hero do the thing? Depends on how it is easiest to write the story.

So, right here you show a misunderstanding. This isn't about what is "easier", as if the writer is lazy. It is about what is better for the story. If Loki could just bull through the TVA by main strength alone, it would have been a short series, and ultimately not about Loki, as a person.


And sure, it is ultimately all made up, but keeping things consistent helps to pretend it is real and makes the perils feel more real.

So, I think of comic books and comic book moves as modern mythology, for which consistency of objective details is not an expectation.
 

Stalker0

Legend
"Strong guy," isn't even a major line in Loki's portfolio, like it is for Hulk or Thor. His physical strength is not central to how he deals with the world, because however strong he is compared to humans, he's not strong compared to the people he grew up with - Asgardians.
And yet in the majority of Loki’s appearance in the MCU, at one point or another he has engaged in physical combat, and don pretty well.

So it is pretty jarring when he just gets his butt kicked over and over again in the series.

The TVA agents are one thing… they are literal masters of time and space I could respect that they have been enhanced or have tech thst makes them super combat capable.

To me the real inconsistency is when Loki fights a regular person controlled by Sylvie and gets his butt kicked….this is a guy that has tanked hits from captain America, a regular person shouldn’t even slow him down
 


Eric V

Hero
And yet in the majority of Loki’s appearance in the MCU, at one point or another he has engaged in physical combat, and don pretty well.

So it is pretty jarring when he just gets his butt kicked over and over again in the series.

The TVA agents are one thing… they are literal masters of time and space I could respect that they have been enhanced or have tech thst makes them super combat capable.

To me the real inconsistency is when Loki fights a regular person controlled by Sylvie and gets his butt kicked….this is a guy that has tanked hits from captain America, a regular person shouldn’t even slow him down
Sylvie probably powers up people she controls?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Sylvie probably powers up people she controls?

How about being enchanted removes their drive for self-preservation and much of the usual pain response? Sure, they're knocking Loki around like they were full-on Asgardians, but not all the Advil in the world is going to save them from the pain tomorrow.
 

"Strong guy," isn't even a major line in Loki's portfolio, like it is for Hulk or Thor. His physical strength is not central to how he deals with the world, because however strong he is compared to humans, he's not strong compared to the people he grew up with - Asgardians.
My complaint was that Loki is the 'clever guy' or the 'illusions guy,' and he never really uses cleverness or illusions to overcome any of his challenges in the series.
 


Mirtek

Hero
So, right here you show a misunderstanding. This isn't about what is "easier", as if the writer is lazy. It is about what is better for the story. If Loki could just bull through the TVA by main strength alone, it would have been a short series, and ultimately not about Loki, as a person.
I have to disagree here. If the abilities of a character are a detriment for the particular story you want to tell with him, than it's simply a bad story for him. Either find a logical way to get around that or admit that it's a bad story to tell with this character and do something different.

Just ignoring it and pretending they detriment doesn't exist makes it a bad story.

If your story required Aquaman to be troubled due to falling of a boat and risk drowing in the ocean, you have probably picked the wrong protagonist.
 

Staffan

Legend
I have to disagree here. If the abilities of a character are a detriment for the particular story you want to tell with him, than it's simply a bad story for him. Either find a logical way to get around that or admit that it's a bad story to tell with this character and do something different.

Just ignoring it and pretending they detriment doesn't exist makes it a bad story.

If your story required Aquaman to be troubled due to falling of a boat and risk drowing in the ocean, you have probably picked the wrong protagonist.
I'd say it depends on whether something is a core trait or not. Aquaman drowning would be dumb. But two super-strong characters fluctuating in power regarding who's strongest? That's completely fair. Maybe one of them had a bad day or something.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Does Loki have some limited teleportation in the MCU? (Like in the last episode getting in front of Sylvie as she swings).
 

Staffan

Legend
Does Loki have some limited teleportation in the MCU? (Like in the last episode getting in front of Sylvie as she swings).
I don't think so, but he's really good at illusions so he can create an image of himself that attracts attention while the real Loki invisibly moves into a better position.

Then again, there is probably some teleportation going on with his daggers, for example.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
I don't think so, but he's really good at illusions so he can create an image of himself that attracts attention while the real Loki invisibly moves into a better position.

Then again, there is probably some teleportation going on with his daggers, for example.
I had thought I remembered him doing it somewhere in the movies (but maybe it was in the comics?)... but then I thought of all of the places he hadn't used it in the movies and figured I must be wrong... until that last scene.
 

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