Long live the vampires - OR - Why does Turning have to exist?

[Nonlethal Force]

As the title asks.

Why does the turning mechanic even have to exist? Are undead simply that powerful? Or, does turning exist to give clerics another notch in their belt?

I understand that in the traditionalist view of D&D undead is not a natural state of occurance. Undead are created through negative energy. Thus, that negative energy can be "shunned" or - turned.

I understand all that. But my question is even more basic. The turning mechanic is clunky - even the CD alternate system jst isn't that great. Why not merely remove the mechanic? Would anyone actually consider the cleric anything but powerful even if it did not turn undead? [Please don't go into the argument that they couldn't use divine metamagic, then ... because even if undead turning were eliminated clerics could still be given something to trigger divine metamagic or divine metamagic could be put on a "__ times per day" system like many other feats are.]

What would a game be like where undead can neither be bolstered or turned? Thoughts? Anyone try this? [I would assume that the game works just fine, because I can't possibly believe that every party that encounters undead has a cleric in it. ]

 

[Jack Simth]

Had a Paladin who never thought about it for a while, and currently a Favored Soul rather than a Cleric - a lack of turning doesn't seem to affect the game overtly much, other than the flavor where a cleric can simply zap away the evil hordes of undead.

Although there was a point where the Favored Soul regretted being unable to Turn Undead..... massive hordes of human zombies can do that, even at higher levels.....

 

[Stalker0]

I think the cleric powerwise would be just fine without turning undead. As WOTC has said, undead CRs do NOT take into account turning, so the ability is considering extraneous anyway. Now, the lose of access to divine feats would be a hit, but as said you could just give them the ability to use positive energy X times per day.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Although there was a point where the Favored Soul regretted being unable to Turn Undead..... massive hordes of human zombies can do that, even at higher levels.....

Oh, I don't doubt it! But, I would imagine a horde of kobolds could have put the party in a similar situation and kobolds can never be turned. I'm not discounting your point, merely just stating an agreement that a horde of anything can be difficult to handle.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Two words: Sacred Cow.

Turning has largely morphed into another way to squeeze out additional power for clerics. If you're using all your turn attempts on undead each day, you need to get some splat books and find some other uses for 'em.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Two words: Sacred Cow.

I was wondering how long it would take for these words to appear! I agree, however...

Turning has largely morphed into another way to squeeze out additional power for clerics. If you're using all your turn attempts on undead each day, you need to get some splat books and find some other uses for 'em.

No - I don't use all my turning attempts each day on them. I guess I was toying with the idea of simply eliminating turning from the game. [Is that the sound of cooking hamburger I hear on the grill behind me? ] Anyway, I was thinking of simply eliminating it. Clerics do fine without it. And I'd even consider still giving them something like "Metamagic Attempts" in equal numbers to turning attempts so that players who like to use divine metamagic wouldn't even feel the hit. I don't mind the divine metamagic aspect of turning. I just hate the turning mechanic and the fact that there is a whole class of monsters (undead) that has a specific character ability geared against it.

 

[Sejs]

Turning as the instant undead off-switch, yeah, sacred cow. One I really don't care for, personally. Particularly the the all or nothing nature of it.

I'm much more partial to the positive (or negative) energy AE burst that either damages undead or heals them and can grant temp hp. Much more tidy. No charts to reference, either.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Why does the turning mechanic even have to exist?

Two words: Sacred Cow.

Four Words: Western European Vampire Legends.

There are several vampire stories and even folklore from Western Europe and America that depict undead (usually Vampires), demons and devils being repulsed or damaged by holy men presenting their symbols of faith.

The casting out of demons and devils is also a fairly typical power for holy persons in a variety of faiths, including Christianity.

Seems a natural for inclusion.

 

[frankthedm]

I think the cleric powerwise would be just fine without turning undead. As WOTC has said, undead CRs do NOT take into account turning, so the ability is considering extraneous anyway.

Could you give me a link to that. My assumption on the matter was the Cleric was "pulling the weight" of the rogue who had little hope of sneak attacking in the encounter. The cleric seems to be 1.5 people of the 4 person party, while the rogue is about half a character in an undead fight. Later in levels when UMD is reliable, fewer undead are that turnable so the balace is more of 1.25 cleric / .75 rogue.

Now, the lose of access to divine feats would be a hit.

The loss of non core feats is hardly a "hit".

 

[zoroaster100]

I too really dislike the all or nothing nature of the turn mechanic. I'm thinking of removing it and I hope it will be removed in 4th edition. I think there should be a way to replicate the holy many shunning undead and evil outsiders mechanic, but that should be handled through a cleric spell that allows the cleric to present a holy symbol and cause a fear effect in such creatures (even in undead that are normally immune to normal fear).

Also, a question: What is this "AE" that was mentioned as having an alternate turning mechanic.