Long live the vampires - OR - Why does Turning have to exist?

[Enkhidu]

My gaming group is currently looking at turning as something that needs to be more "fun," and came up with this framework:

- Turning is no longer strictly a clerical schtick, though they are still the best at it. However, any true believer (and this is a DM call - non mechnical in the extreme) can attempt to turn as if they were a cleric one third their character level (and these levels stack with cleric levels and/or paladin levels as appropriate).

- Mechanically, making a turning attempt is not much changed when it comes to dice rolling. The existing turning check is unchanged (it's still hit die and character level based), as is turning damage. However, turning's auto-fear effect is replaced by an effect almost identical to Protection from Evil, save that instead of hedging out summoned creatures it hedges out undead. In addition, turning (as well as maintaining a turn) is a full round action that does not provoke an AoO.

- This ability becomes even more powerful when the cleric would normally be able to destroy undead (whether by being twice their level/HD or some other ability), extending to become a Magic Circle against undead (much like the other magic circle spells). In this case, such a magic circle will actually drive the turned creaure back out of the protected area (if possible)

- Finally, a successful turning attempt that is in its second or later maintained round allows the turner to make a melee touch attack with their holy symbol against the successfully turned undead creature. Such an attack causes 1d6 point of positive energy for every two levels of turning ability (max of 10d6). Again, being twice as many hit dice as the turned undead is a bonus, as it allows the turner to extend such an attack into a ranged touch attack with a range of 30'.


I think it might still need some work, but I like it.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Turn/Rebuke makes sense for some clerics, but not for others which is my problem with it. There's no: "I don't care either way" option. Does my cleric of love and music really care that much about undead? Why did they waste time teaching him this crap at church, he had hymns and prayers to learn.

In the context of D&D, I agree. Turning seems like a Domain ability that could also be a Feat.

Generally speaking, vampires are just a specific example among the wide ranging group of things we would call "spirits". Vampires just happen to be evil ones who somehow are spawned from the formerly living.

The belief that "holy men" can command "spirits" to obey in some fashion is more common than dirt the world over.

 

[Goldmoon]

Lets see... I average about 10 hours a week gaming. I play every week (aside from trips to the sandbox). Been playing 3rd edition since 2001. Ive seen undead turned maybe 5 or 6 times. I look at it like a gun or four-wheel-drive: its better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.

 

[Arkhandus]

A few points, since this thread caught my attention from the main forum page when I logged back in.....

1) The 3.0 DMG's (not sure if it's the same in the 3.5 DMG) chapter where it describes Encounter Levels and such specifically mentions that the CR/EL system takes into account the supposition that the party consists of a fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard, and that the cleric uses his/her turning ability. Undead CRs do factor in the expectation that parties will have a cleric who can turn or rebuke undead. They are expected to have a decent chance of being weakened or stymied, and a small or tiny chance of being destroyed or commanded.

2) Without the turn/rebuke mechanic, only high-level clerics, sorcerers, and wizards will be able to exert any degree of control over undead, and usually only over undead that they themselves have created or animated. This drastically reduces the usefulness of necromancer archetypes, and evil clerics (who can't spontaneously heal, and thus have greater need for their undead-commanding capacity for minions), and makes the idea of a low-level necromancer controlling zombies and skeletons simply impossible (unless there's some very-low-level undead-controlling spell in a splatbook I don't know about).

3) As others have said, priests turning or exorcising the undead, is a very common and classic element of folklore and mythology all over the place. It seems stupid to just outright eliminate that element from D&D. Who else but the village's preacher or the tribe's shaman would you turn to when a ghoul pack or a vampire attacked the village? Who else SHOULD you turn to? Nobody, that's who. Undead are unnatural and antithetical to all other life, all true life. The local holy man darned well OUGHT to be the go-to guy for saving the town from such unholy abominations and threats. So what if he's just a 1st-level cleric? He still should have some power over the undead. Not just "I Cure Light Wounds and maim the zombie! Wait! Aagh! It's still there! He's eating my hand!!! Ohhhh gods no! Pelor save me! AAAAGH-*gurgle*"

4) The turning mechanic is also used by other domain powers, as folks have noted, such as the elemental domains. If you eliminate turn/rebuke undead, you probably have to rewrite those domain powers too. What good is a cleric of the fire god when he runs into rampaging fire elementals, if he can't rebuke them?

5) Just because one group of D&Ders hardly ever uses or sees use of the Turn/Rebuke Undead ability, does not mean that other groups also experience the same lack of need for it. If the DM isn't throwing at least an occasional horde of zombies at you, or an occasional angry ghost or scheming vampire, at least in some of his/her campaigns, then I'm not sure what's wrong with him/her, but he/she OUGHT to be. What D&D game is complete without at least one undead blight? The groups I've DMed have always faced at least one major undead-battle or at least an occasional necromancer or whatnot. They've fought a group of shadows and ghosts once that really freaked them out and made the entire party worry about their doom until the very last spirit was dispatched. They've been briefly haunted by the ghost of their dead comrade. They've fought an ex-druid/blighter/some-other-class-I-forgot who controlled not only a group of rabid animals but also a group of animate animal skeletons. They've fought a house full of zombies that used to be the family who lived there, children and all. They've fought a band of intelligent, animate, pirate skeletons. And those are just the encounters that come to mind right away. C'mon! Where's the undead in your games, man!?!? Even the games I've played in have usually had at least one significant encounter with the undead.

6) Turning undead is a sacred cow of D&D and therefore shouldn't just be discarded lightly due to a mild annoyance at the current edition's mechanic for it. Just simplify the mechanic if it's that bothersome. Otherwise, it'd take several spells added to the cleric's list just to emulate the turning/rebuking and destroying/commanding and bolstering/dispelling turning.