Long-Term Injury Fun?

hong said:
I like the idea. Not sure if I'd use it myself, because I'm quite happy with the 4E setup as it stands, but I could see a place for it if you wanted long-term wounds. However, daze doesn't really work. If you're dazed, you basically can't do anything, which means you can't even go on the quest assigned to you (bar funky stuff like adventuring in the subconscious or something).

Yeah, I plan on running 4e as written, without any house rules. (Though I might twist the system a little when it comes to skill challenges, depending on how my group wants to play.) I'm not happy with the conditions as a penalty, either, but I have no idea what a suitable penalty would be, or even if a penalty is necessary.

hong said:
Another thing is that it puts the onus on the DM to find a suitable quest/adventure for you to heal yourself. I guess that most DMs who want long-term wounds are coming at it from a s*mul*tionist perspective, whereby it would make no sense that going adventuring would help you heal a broken leg. Similarly, the other players are likely to be the ones doing most of the grunt work on the quest, which might strike them as unfair.

I was trying to look at it from a "gamist" point of view, where long-term injury provides an avenue for more cool adventure instead of less. I'm not sure the two things even go together, though.

Thanks for looking at it.
 

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ruleslawyer said:
D&D has never had a core model for long-term or crippling injury. Never.

One of the first (if not the first) topics covered in the 1e DMG is Disease. Something that can be caught at random or as the result of a combat (with Giant Rats of all things) that could take days, weeks or months to heal. And, IIRC, sometimes the damage one takes from certain diseases can be permanent.

Besides that, all sorts of monsters throughout D&D's history inflicted (sometimes permanent) ability score drain and level drain. Some of that stuff wouldn't heal back without a Wish spell or some other crazily high-powered spell.

The fact is that D&D has always had some sort of core model way of handling long-term, even debilitating, injuries to a PC as the result of combat.

But, and this is my opinion, it's never had a good way of doing it.

Like it or not, 4e will also have some form of Persistent Conditions as the result of combat. I already know the mechanic for it. It was in one of the Design & Development articles on the Wizards site, IIRC.

After you wake up you roll a save. If you roll 11+, the Persistent Condition goes away. If not it stays with you until you attempt another save the next morning.

What's being attempted here (at least by me and at least a few others) is finding a way to apply Persistent Conditions -- or the Persistent Condition mechanic -- to a sort of Massive Damage rule. So that a Persistent Condition may be acquired as a result of getting hit really hard in combat.

Note that something of this sort may already be a rule (or variant) in the 4e PHB or the DMG.
 


Celebrim said:
Pretending to be, playing at being, and fantasizing about being a hero who is merely good at killing things and not moreover morally heroic is about the saddest, vainest, and least productive pursuit I can imagine.
I can think of at least one sadder, vainer activity: believing that pretending to be a moral hero actually makes you more moral. And while we're at it, what's so wrong with a little catharsis, a little acting out??

If we aren't actually tackling serious questions, creating worthwhile stories, learning history, math, cartography and anything else we can, improving social skills otherwise latent in typical nerds, and otherwise being productive, then we are greatly overindulging a childish pasttime and need to find something else to do with ourselves. Knitting. Jogging. Board games.
"The more sophisticated the mind, the greater the need for play." That's from Star Trek, BTW...

I'm reminded of the X-Files episode where they say they 'didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage'. That's either pathetic or wise, I've never been certain which. Maybe it's both.
It's not both. The statement is meant to ridicule the character saying it, to make someone who believes that look ridiculous. It's pure irony.

Sometimes irony can work on several levels.
You're referring ironic double-coding. That lines not it.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Remember that attacks and defenses scale. it doesn't matter if you have a +15 attack or a +5 attack - against comparable foes a -3 will always hurt. It's still a good idea to limit the penalty. I think the outmost should be -5, but even that will make a character so ineffectual that's probably not really "fun" to have such a penalty for long...

There is that, but I think that there are bigger issues.

The most important is that role playing is a team sport. If roleplaying was normally an individual activity, a period of being 'weak' would simply be another challenge to overcome. But since it is played in groups, if one player is significantly weaker than the other thier is a conflict over what action should be adopted next. Challenges suitable for the weakened character don't challenge the ones that haven't been weakened. Conversely, challenges for the unweakened characters are a signfiicant risk of further debilitation and death for the injured one.

So what this typically means is that if an injury is too debilitating it normally has only a small impact on play, because rather than deal with the injury, the party collectively decides, "We won't do anything until Bob is feeling better." If the party is high enough level, that might typically only mean 'tommorrow'.

The other problem is that with any injury, even just loss of hit points, there needs to be some mechanic which imposes a cost on immediately resting until fully healed. Otherwise, players will (or more precise can) simply do so after any loss, no matter how trivial. Right now, the only such mechanics are ones imposed by the DM's story - story clocks, pro-active villains (even if only wandering monsters), rival factions, etc. That's why the 'injury candy' mechanics that have been mentioned in the thread are so interesting.

As for why I call them 'injury candy', its because I have small children and they remind me of the common technique of bribing children along the lines of, "If you'll be brave, then you can have a treat afterwards."
 

Mallus said:
I can think of at least one sadder, vainer activity: believing that pretending to be a moral hero actually makes you more moral.

I would think that knowing what is moral doesn't make one necessarily any more moral. So I would never think that pretending to be a moral hero would make you more moral, but I would believe that pretending to be a moral hero might (if you were a good pretender) tell you something about what a moral hero was.

And while we're at it, what's so wrong with a little catharsis, a little acting out??

Oh, nothing. But we might as well just ask, what's wrong with alot of catharsis, a lot of acting out? And I think the answer is quite similar to the answer to the question, "What's wrong with pretending to be a moral hero but never actually trying to be one?"

"The more sophisticated the mind, the greater the need for play." That's from Star Trek, BTW...

The corrolary being, the more sophisticated the mind, the greater the need for sophisticated play. You can see this in children as they grow. There play becomes more and more complex, right until most of them become adults and begin regressing because they decide they are too old for play.

It's not both. The statement is meant to ridicule the character saying it, to make someone who believes that look ridiculous. It's pure irony.

I'm not sure. Sometimes out of the mouths of fools and children proceeds wisdom. Sometimes words mean more than authors intend them to. I find a tension between you claim that the more sophisticated the mind, the greater the need for play, and the claim that the other quoted statement doesn't have layers of meaning. Play is strongly associated with learning. I grant that some things can only be learned through experience, but play is widely regarded as preparation for the actual experience.
 



Celebrim said:
...but I would believe that pretending to be a moral hero might (if you were a good pretender) tell you something about what a moral hero was.
I see heroism as a response to crisis. Without real crisis, there's no opportunity for (or knowledge of) heroism. At that point it's just an empty word.

But we might as well just ask, what's wrong with alot of catharsis, a lot of acting out? And I think the answer is quite similar to the answer to the question, "What's wrong with pretending to be a moral hero but never actually trying to be one?"
For the record, my answers are "nothing" and "nothing".

The corrolary being, the more sophisticated the mind, the greater the need for sophisticated play.
That's just false. Even the eggiest head can enjoy simple pleasurable activities like watching a sunset, a drinking a stiff drink, or rubbing a puppy's tummy. Or killing an orc with kung-fu and taking its stuff. Not everything needs to be dressed up in onanistic --thanks for putting that word in my head, BTW-- intellectualism.

Consider that Trek episode I brought up; Kirk needed nothing more than to smack his old academy tormentor around. He didn't need to psychoanalyze his desire to do so or the implications of actually doing so in a less-than-actual game space.

I find a tension between you claim that the more sophisticated the mind, the greater the need for play, and the claim that the other quoted statement doesn't have layers of meaning.
Why? Sometimes a nerd joke is a just a nerd joke. The fact that some text has layered meanings in no way implies that all texts do.

...but play is widely regarded as preparation for the actual experience.
Yes, but many cases that regard is misplaced.
 

Mallus said:
I see heroism as a response to crisis. Without real crisis, there's no opportunity for (or knowledge of) heroism. At that point it's just an empty word.

We seem to be in agreement there.

That's just false. Even the eggiest head can enjoy simple pleasurable activities like watching a sunset, a drinking a stiff drink, or rubbing a puppy's tummy.

Hmmm...

Early it was said to me that the answer depended on your definition of hero. Well, here I'm not sure that that meets my definition of play. Granted, the definition of play is hazy:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
play /pleɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pley] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a dramatic composition or piece; drama.
2. a dramatic performance, as on the stage.
3. exercise or activity for amusement or recreation.
4. fun or jest, as opposed to seriousness: I said it merely in play.
5. a pun.
6. the playing, action, or conduct of a game: The pitcher was replaced in the fourth inning of play.
7. the manner or style of playing or of doing something: We admired his fine play throughout the game.
8. an act or instance of playing or of doing something: a stupid play that cost us the match.
9. one's turn to play: Whose play is it?
10. a playing for stakes; gambling.
11. an attempt to accomplish something, often in a manner showing craft or calculation; maneuver: They tried to buy up the stock in a takeover play.
12. an enterprise or venture; deal: an oil and drilling play.
13. action, conduct, or dealing of a specified kind: fair play; foul play.
14. action, activity, or operation: the play of fancy.
15. brisk, light, or changing movement or action: a fountain with a leaping play of water.
16. elusive change or movement, as of light or colors: the play of a searchlight against the night sky.
17. a space in which something, as a part of a mechanism, can move.
18. freedom of movement within a space, as of a part of a mechanism.
19. freedom for action, or scope for activity: full play of the mind.
20. attention in the press or other media; coverage; dissemination as news: The birth of the panda got a big play in the papers.
21. an act or instance of being broadcast: The governor's speech got two plays on our local station.
–verb (used with object) 22. to act the part of (a person or character) in a dramatic performance; portray: to play Lady Macbeth.
23. to perform (a drama, pantomime, etc.) on or as if on the stage.
24. to act or sustain (a part) in a dramatic performance or in real life: to play the role of benefactor.
25. to act the part or character of in real life: to play the fool; to play God.
26. to give performances in, as a theatrical company does: to play the larger cities.
27. to engage in (a game, pastime, etc.).
28. to contend against in a game.
29. to function or perform as (a specified player) in a game or competition: He usually plays left end.
30. to employ (a piece of equipment, a player, etc.) in a game: I played my highest card.
31. to use as if in playing a game, as for one's own advantage: He played his brothers against each other.
32. to stake or wager, as in a game.
33. to lay a wager or wagers on (something).
34. to represent or imitate, as for recreation or in jest: to play cowboys and Indians.
35. to perform on (a musical instrument).
36. to perform (music) on an instrument.
37. to cause (a phonograph, radio, recording, etc.) to produce sound or pictures: to play a tape; to play the radio.
38. to do or perform: You shouldn't play tricks. Compromise plays an important part in marriage.
39. to carry or put into operation; act upon: to play a hunch.
40. to cause to move or change lightly or quickly: to play colored lights on a fountain.
41. to operate or cause to operate, esp. continuously or with repeated action: to play a hose on a fire.
42. to allow (a hooked fish) to exhaust itself by pulling on the line.
43. to display or feature (a news story, photograph, etc.), esp. prominently: Play the flood photos on page one.
44. to exploit or trade in (an investment, business opportunity, stock, etc.).
–verb (used without object) 45. to exercise or employ oneself in diversion, amusement, or recreation.
46. to do something in sport that is not to be taken seriously.
47. to amuse oneself; toy; trifle (often fol. by with).
48. to take part or engage in a game.
49. to take part in a game for stakes; gamble.
50. to conduct oneself or act in a specified way: to play fair.
51. to act on or as if on the stage; perform.
52. to perform on a musical instrument.
53. (of an instrument or music) to sound in performance: The strings are playing well this evening.
54. (of a phonograph, radio, recording, etc.) to give forth sound: The radio played all night.
55. to be performed or shown: What's playing at the movie theater around the corner?
56. to be capable of or suitable for performance, as a television or dramatic script: We hope this scene will play well.
57. Informal. to be accepted or effective; fare: How will the senator's proposal play with the public?
58. to move freely within a space, as a part of a mechanism.
59. to move about lightly or quickly: The water of the fountain played in the air.
60. to present the effect of such motion, as light or the changing colors of an iridescent substance: The lights played strangely over the faces of the actors.
61. to operate continuously or with repeated action.
62. Informal. to comply or cooperate: They wanted her to tell them what she knew about the plans, but she refused to play.
—Verb phrases63. play along, a. to cooperate or concur; go along.
b. to pretend to cooperate or concur.
64. play around, Informal. a. to behave in a playful or frivolous manner; fool around.
b. to be sexually promiscuous.
c. to be sexually unfaithful.
65. play at, a. to pretend interest in: It's obvious that you're just playing at fishing for my sake.
b. to do something without seriousness: He is merely playing at being a student.
66. play back, to play (a recording, esp. one newly made): Play it back and let's hear how I sound.
67. play down, to treat as of little importance; belittle: He has consistently played down his own part in the successful enterprise.
68. play off, a. Sports. to play an extra game or round in order to settle a tie.
b. Sports. to engage in an elimination game or games after the regular season is over in order to determine the champion.
c. to set (one person or thing) against another, usually for one's own gain or advantage: The children could usually get what they wanted by playing one parent off against the other.
69. play on or upon, to exploit, as the feelings or weaknesses of another; take selfish advantage of: She would never think of playing on the good nature of others.
70. play out, a. to bring to an end; finish.
b. to use up; exhaust: to play out one's supplies.
c. to reel or pay out, as a rope, line, etc.
71. play up, to emphasize the importance of; highlight or publicize: The schools are playing up their science programs.
—Idioms72. bring into play, to put into motion; cause to be introduced: New evidence has been brought into play in this trial.
73. come to play, Informal. to be disposed to play or participate in a manner reflecting a determination to win or succeed: We're a small new business, but we came to play.
74. in or out of play, in or not in the state of being played during a game: The umpire says the ball was not in play.
75. make a play for, Informal. a. to try to attract, esp. sexually: He made a play for his friend's girlfriend.
b. to attempt to gain by impressing favorably: This ad will make a play for new consumer markets.
76. play ball. ball1 (def. 23).
77. play both ends against the middle, to maneuver opposing groups in order to benefit oneself.
78. play by ear, to play (music or a musical instrument) without printed music, as by memory of what one has heard or by unschooled musical instinct.
79. played out, a. exhausted; weary.
b. out of fashion; hackneyed: New styles in clothing are soon played out in New York.
c. used up; finished: The original tires were played out and had to be replaced.
80. play fast and loose, to act in an irresponsible or inconsiderate manner, esp. to employ deception to gain one's ends: to play fast and loose with someone's affections.
81. play for time, to prolong something in order to gain an advantage; forestall an event or decision: Their maneuvering at the conference was obviously calculated to play for time.
82. play hardball. hardball (def. 4).
83. play into the hands of, to act in such a way as to give an advantage to (someone, esp. an opponent): If you lose your temper when he insults you, you will be playing right into his hands. Also, play into (someone's) hands.
84. play it by ear, to improvise, esp. in a challenging situation when confronted by unknown factors: If you can't come up with a plan, we'll just have to play it by ear.
85. play one's cards. card1 (def. 21).
86. play politics. politics (def. 8).
87. play possum. possum (def. 3).
88. play second fiddle. second fiddle (def. 1).
89. play the field. field (def. 39).
90. play the game. game1 (def. 23).
91. play up to, Informal. to attempt to impress in order to gain someone's favor: Students who too obviously play up to their teachers are usually disliked by their classmates.
92. play with a full deck. deck (def. 23).
93. play with fire. fire (def. 54).
94. play with oneself, Informal. to masturbate.

But when I think of play, I don't think of activities which are as passive as the ones you just listed. I'm inclined to think that under the definition of 'play' which covers watching a sunset, that any kind of relaxation including sleeping is a form of play. In which case, we mere humans don't hold a candle to the mental sophistication of cats.

And I specifically reject taking a stiff drink as a form of play. In fact, I'm not sure what category it falls into, but whatever that category is I see it as rather the opposite of play, and the only relationship I think it has to play is some particularly uptight individuals require one or more stiff drinks before they can relax enough to be playful.

Why? Sometimes a nerd joke is a just a nerd joke. The fact that some text has layered meanings in no way implies that all texts do.

I didn't say that they did. But the fact that some texts have a layered meaning means that some texts have a layered meaning.

Yes, but many cases that regard is misplaced.

I think we differ here over a quantifier ('many'), and disagreements over abstract quantifiers are pretty much irresolvable.
 

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