D&D 5E Longswords

[tglassy]

I'm just throwing this in here, even though I haven't read the entire thread, but when I first started playing 5e, back in June, it seemed to make the most sense to do dex based. Didn't need armor, did damage with finesse weaopns, one of which was as good as the classic longsword, helped with initiative, yada yada. I thought "Of course that's what I want!"

But then I thought about it, and strength really is just as good in combat. Maybe more so. If you have plate armor and use a strength based weapon, dex becomes a dump stat. More points for other attributes. You don't get the dex based skills, but that just means you're not stealthy or thievy. You still have athletics, which is sort of like Acrobatics for Strength people.

The only thing I can see that you miss out on is initiative, but you can either take the Alert Feat, or just roll high. Plus, you can grapple better. So, you trade initiative for grapple.

So, the differences:

Strength:
Attack/damage with all melee weapons
Plate Armor (+shield gets AC 20)
Grapple
Strength checks (not as numerous as dex)

Dex:
Attack/damage (ranged, and finesse melee weapons)
AC bonus with medium or less armor
Thieving skills
Initiative.

I think those are pretty even tradeoffs. Can someone explain to me why the dex rapier is considered better than the strength longsword? Either stat can be a dump stat and still get a decent attack/AC.

 

[Satyrn]

I'd drop the damage of a rapier down to 1d6 and add in a weapon property called "fencing" that allows it to be dual wielded with other fencing weapons. (Actually it would be a combination of that and finesse - or maybe even just force Dex as the ability used)

I'd then add new weapon called main-gauche, which would obviously have the fencing property. It would do 1d4 damage and provide +1 AC. And maybe be Light.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think those are pretty even tradeoffs. Can someone explain to me why the dex rapier is considered better than the strength longsword? Either stat can be a dump stat and still get a decent attack/AC.

Because there are a lot more Dex based skills than Strength based skills, Dex saves are more important, and the ability to have both good ranged attacks and good melee attacks is extremely effective.

I'd drop the damage of a rapier down to 1d6 and add in a weapon property called "fencing" that allows it to be dual wielded with other fencing weapons. (Actually it would be a combination of that and finesse - or maybe even just force Dex as the ability used)

I'd then add new weapon called main-gauche, which would obviously have the fencing property. It would do 1d4 damage and provide +1 AC. And maybe be Light.

Be easier to just give the Dagger the Very Light property that allows it to me paired with a non-light weapon when dual-wielded if you really feel the need for that. There is a feat to allow that sort of thing though.

Not sure what the point of forcing Dex as the ability used would be though?

 

[Satyrn]

Not sure what the point of forcing Dex as the ability used would be though?

Flavor

 

[Prism]

Because there are a lot more Dex based skills than Strength based skills, Dex saves are more important, and the ability to have both good ranged attacks and good melee attacks is extremely effective.

You could argue that for maximum AC (Plate) you need strength, and it also makes stealth redundant. So you can compare acrobatics and sleight of hand to athletics. Athletics is probably the best in combat since it is used for grappling, shoving, climbing and possibly jumping.

All in all I think they are quite even

 

[Geoarrge]

The simplest patch, I think, is to add a fighting style specializing in versatile weapons.

Say, +2 to a two-handed attack roll, or when making a one-handed attack, +2 on any off-hand attack (when wielding a versatile weapon).

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

You could argue that for maximum AC (Plate) you need strength, and it also makes stealth redundant. So you can compare acrobatics and sleight of hand to athletics. Athletics is probably the best in combat since it is used for grappling, shoving, climbing and possibly jumping.

All in all I think they are quite even

"Redundant" means "unnecessary". I think that you mean Str build and plate makes Stealth "really difficult". Whereas a Dex build makes Stealth a definite option. Its certainly the most effective Dex skill out of the three.
Worth giving up a single point of AC? Mechanically, probably.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Flavor

I'd suggest just sticking to the standard finesse and let the players go with the flavour that they like. Let the athletic fencer who attacks with vigorous jumps, powerful lunges and occasionally beating her opponent's guard down play alongside the graceful one who relies on balance and reflexes to strike hard.

The simplest patch, I think, is to add a fighting style specializing in versatile weapons.

Say, +2 to a two-handed attack roll, or when making a one-handed attack, +2 on any off-hand attack (when wielding a versatile weapon).

I'd suggest not pigeonholing versatile into dual-wielding: any benefit of the style when the weapon is held in one hand should work for both two-weapon-fighting and shield.
I'd suggest perhaps a +1 to hit with a versatile weapon, and an additional +1 to damage when the versatile weapon is used in both hands.
I'd actually also be tempted to add a bonus to Str(Athletics) and similar checks to grapple, shove, or otherwise mess with your opponent to expand on the versatility theme as well. - Just need a better wording for it.

Alternatively, just adjusting the Duelling style so that it works with a versatile weapon when held in both hands as well might work. However that still doesn't really give much incentive to put down the shield.

 

[Geoarrge]

Maybe, limit the bonus to off-hand attacks, to apply only to unarmed strikes and grapples, thereby encouraging keeping a free hand. But that would still leave out shields.

 

[Furby076]

I more or less run adventures RAW and not very many magical rapiers if any and lots of magical longswords.

ANother reason is you can't sneak attack with longswords and a Rapier should have been a d6 weapon.

AFAIK there is only 1 way I know how to finesse a longsword in 5E as well.

Don't automatically gine the PCs the best magical equipment either. Hand out +2 chainmail for example or a +2 spear or magical short sword or dagger over a rapier or +2 or +3 leather over magical studded leather. I have defaulted to using a magical shortword over a non magical rapier and our rogue uses a +1 dagger over a non magical rapier.

Try and get the PCs away from using the "best" equipment all of the time.

How do you deal with characters who are specialized or focused on specific items?