Looking for clarification on SLOWED condition

[Syrsuro]

One Speed: When you double move, add the speeds of the two move actions together and then move.

It's not moving your speed twice; it's moving once with a speed twice normal.

A double move has One Speed, which is the speed of the two move actions added together. The speed of the move actions is 2, and the two added together is 4, so the double move has a speed of 4. Taking a double move, therefore, is arguably increasing the character's speed above 2, forbidden by the Slowed condition; his double move has One Speed which cannot, according to the Slowed condition, be greater than 2.

-Hyp.

This can lead, logically, to the conclusion that a double move is no longer possible.

What it does not lead to is the conclusion (which you have stated elsewhere) that the player cannot still take a second, ordinary, move after taking a first move.

Where I think your interpretation goes askew is in taking the non-rules box text: "If you take the same move action twice in a row—two walks, two runs, two shifts, two crawls—you’re taking a double move." as meaning "you cannot take the same move action twice in a row unless you are making a double move."

I think that two consecutive moves can be a double move not must be a double move. Sometimes they are simply two consecutive moves.

That, and it is not clear when you must declare a double move or how that declaration interacts with powers that interrupt that move.

(I also think that the text that specifies that if you have already moved two squares when you are slowed you must stop was written with zero consideration of the double move possibility and thus did not consider that special case. I suspect that rule of being poorly written and that it should have been written to specify "or 4 squares if making a double move." in which case much of this discussion would be moot.)

Carl

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where I think your interpretation goes askew is in taking the non-rules box text:

So what sort of check is required to move a helpless ally I've grabbed?

Can I move diagonally past the corner of a wall? Past a creature?

What square or squares is a creature considered to occupy?

"If you take the same move action twice in a row—two walks, two runs, two shifts, two crawls—you’re taking a double move." as meaning "you cannot take the same move action twice in a row unless you are making a double move."

Are they not equivalent?

A -> B and !B -> !A are identical statements.

"If you take the same move action twice in a row, then you are taking a double move" is logically equivalent to "If you are not taking a double move, then you are not taking the same move action twice in a row".

-Hyp.

 

[kerbarian]

Even if slowed effectively makes a double move impossible (reduces the total to 2 squares), it's easy enough to work around that it doesn't matter much. As FireLance mentioned, you could stick a minor action in between. Another solution would be to move, then ready an action to move again. [Edit: Actually -- couldn't you just stick a free action between the two moves? That would always work.]

However, I don't think it's clear that slow would affect a double move that way in the first place. The rules say "add the speeds of the two move actions together and then move." As far as I can tell, move actions don't have speeds in the first place. Creatures have speeds; move actions let you move a distance based on your speed. So that sentence as written is inconsistent with the rest of the rules and has to be interpreted.

You could interpret it as "Add together the distances you would move with the two move actions, set your speed to that number, then move your speed," in which case you could only move 2 with a double move when slowed.

I think a more reasonable interpretation is "Add together the distances you would move with the two move actions, then move that many squares," in which case you could move 4 with a double move when slowed.

 

[Bayuer]

Ok so if double move is so troublesome just pass. Use move action to move 2 squares and then charge! Wow! Even better! Hyb your conclusion is too far. Quotet text just says that you add two of your move action speeds (for difficult terrain and so) and becouse of that you can move more squares.

 

[eamon]

Are they not equivalent?

A -> B and !B -> !A are identical statements.

"If you take the same move action twice in a row, then you are taking a double move" is logically equivalent to "If you are not taking a double move, then you are not taking the same move action twice in a row".

-Hyp.

In logic they're equivalent. In descriptive text, not necessarily so. If you want to make this distinction more precise think of it like this: whereas logical implication simply notes a certain relationship between truthvalues, descriptive "implication" frequently also denotes causality. It's also fuzzy. So it's not that simple.

In the context of a double move, the rules to me suggest that they simply indicate that a double move is best thought of not as a separate action, but as an extension if you move twice in succession. If you can't move in direct succession (because you were stopped), you're not double moving.

 

[GorTeX]

As Tony said, by RAW it's 4, 4, 4, & 3. Personally, I'm convinced there was a goof on the wording wrt run and slow and RAI a slowed single move run is supposed to be 2, since otherwise a slow effect barely touches dwarves or a bunch of monster races, but WOTC hasn't brought it up in an errata.

except for the hefty penalties for running...(granting Combat Advantage and taking a -5 to attacks).

 

[GoLu]

I think here, as with most things, Hypersmurf is right. But right from a very strict RAW point of view which entirely disregards intent, even if that intent seems pretty clear to me.

So it's very interesting to read Hypersmurf's posts, but afterwards I tend to think "yeah, that's a poorly communicated rule; what they meant was probably something more like this" rather than "whoah, crap, I've been playing it wrong all this time!"

 

[DracoSuave]

One Speed: When you double move, add the speeds of the two move actions together and then move.

It's not moving your speed twice; it's moving once with a speed twice normal.

A double move has One Speed, which is the speed of the two move actions added together. The speed of the move actions is 2, and the two added together is 4, so the double move has a speed of 4. Taking a double move, therefore, is arguably increasing the character's speed above 2, forbidden by the Slowed condition; his double move has One Speed which cannot, according to the Slowed condition, be greater than 2.

-Hyp.

Actually, your speed never changes. If you run, your speed is 2. You move four squares. Your speed is 2. If you walk, your speed is 2. If you shift, you move one square; your speed is 2. Your speed never changes.

The title of a rule is not the same as the rule itself. For example: 'No Opportunity Attacks: You do not provoke an Opportunity Attack when shifting out of a square adjacent to an ally' does not mean No Opportunity Attacks Ever. Therefore, if the title of a rule is not a rule, you cannot interpret titles as rules, Hyp.

Therefore, just because the title is 'One Speed' does not mean that you get one speed. That's merely the name of the rule.

You add the speeds together and move that number of squares. -That- is the applicable rule.

 

[Sunglare]

So what sort of check is required to move a helpless ally I've grabbed?

Can I move diagonally past the corner of a wall? Past a creature?

What square or squares is a creature considered to occupy?



Are they not equivalent?

A -> B and !B -> !A are identical statements.

"If you take the same move action twice in a row, then you are taking a double move" is logically equivalent to "If you are not taking a double move, then you are not taking the same move action twice in a row".

-Hyp.

Your still over complicating this. When you are SLOWED. Your SPEED is dropped to 2 (SPEED is now "2").
When you double move you add the SPEED of your two move actions together.
So if your SPEED is 2, then you would move 4 when you double move.

 

[Bayuer]

Your still over complicating this. When you are SLOWED. Your SPEED is dropped to 2 (SPEED is now "2").
When you double move you add the SPEED of your two move actions together.
So if your SPEED is 2, then you would move 4 when you double move.

Yeah. I agree. There's no entry your speed can't be more than 2. It's just stupid. You can shift then make move action - 3 squaeres. Move - 2 and charge - 2 and attack! So staying over thist than when you use double move your speed is reduced to 2 is wrong.

Here's offical Q&A:
Q: Can a creature run while affected by the slowed condition?

A: Yes. The slowed condition reduces your speed to 2 squares. When you run, you move your speed +2 squares. Unlike the slowed condition, the run action does not change your speed; it allows you to move two extra squares beyond your speed at the cost of a -5 penalty to attack rolls, granting combat advantage until the start of your next turn, and provoking opportunity attacks.