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Looking to break out from eurogames

Badwe

First Post
After just beginning to really dig into gaming this year, our group has grown weary of the somewhat lighter interactivity of eurogames. We got so many of them from our respective christmases that we've suddenly exploded through agricola, powergrid, race for the galaxy, ticket to ride, and puerto rico. They're all great games but we're burning ourselves out.

We're looking for a game, potentially a wargame, with the following criteria:

1) can potentially support 4+ players
2) no more complex than agricola/PR
3) Heavy on player interaction, preferably besides munchkin style "screwing".

Any suggestions are welcome. If you think of suggestions that would be more conditional based on what our group is like, please post them. Thanks in advance! If I managed to uncover something on my own I'll make sure to post it here, or if I follow up on a suggestion.
 

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scitadel

First Post
Hmmm, well there's the co-operative series of games. Battlestar Galactica and Shadows over Camelot both come to mind. Shadows is I understand the less complex of the two above. There's also pure co-operative games like Pandemic, Lord of the Rings and Arkham Horror. All high on interaction obviously since their co-operative games.

War games wise, for 4+ players, try Game of Thrones. Also, you might enjoy Risk 2210 or Dust. I'm not a huge fan of Risk 2210 but that's a personal taste thing, I know tons who love it. Note that most war games, especially for 4+ are going to be more complex than Agricola and Puerto Rico. No way around it. The closest that I know of to a simple 4+ one are the Risk 2210 and Dust games, or Memoir '44 with the Overlord expansion.

Last Night on Earth is really good, simple zombie game that is high on theme and since it's a 2-sided game, high on interaction inside parties.

And there's always the oldie... Diplomacy. All interaction. Though I prefer Intrigue (but that's a max 4 player game).
 

Badwe

First Post
All great suggestions. We actually have BSG but haven't gotten to it yet (so many games!), so once we actually play it i'll be sure to post my reactions. The only concern is that, since I haven't watched the show, some of the subtle tie-ins might be lost on me.

We do also have arkham horror, and really enjoyed it although it may have been over-ambitious to start off with 6 people and thinking 2 hours before we had to leave for dinner/movie was enough (it wasn't!).

I believe other people in my group have played risk 2210, but I have not. Now I am slightly more interested in it. I think I may have been reticent due to bad memories of original risk lasting 3 hours before getting eliminated and then another 2 after that. Apparently (and thankfully) it seems they're different!

max 4 is acceptable as well, after all settlers is max 4. In terms of complexity I'm mostly just trying to avoid "pure" wargames where the focus is so heavily on realism that the rules just seem to pile up.

Ironically, the game we seem to still be willing to play over and over is Race for the galaxy. Despite it being especially low on interactivity, it's so quick to play that we hardly mind, and as we all get better at predicting opponent's phase choices and trying to set up to gain something on each phase, as well as being careful about what cards we discard to pay when they're clearly part of an opponent's strategy, it begins to feel a little less solitaire. The same goes for the objectives of the expansion. Seeing that someone is likely to score an objective in the current turn may force a change in phase selection in a "now or never" kind of way.
 

Korgoth

First Post
If you want a proper wargame, get Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear. I've just gotten into it and it's fantastic. It involves moving chits on a hex map, but they're one inch square linen-textured chits and the maps are gorgeous. Each time you play it you will play a "Firefight", which is their term for mission. There are two player missions, and also four player missions. More are available for download on their web site. Most are aimed at two players, though, so a regular four player group will be replaying the missions over again (I think there are four such missions available, but of course they're really big and there's a lot of variation).

One thing that is cool about it is that there are no charts to look up. You're rolling 2d6 plus the unit's firepower rating versus the other unit's defense rating (it has two, depending on if you are hitting it from the front or not). Firepower values labeled in red go best against red defense, but are halved against blue defense... and the same with blue firepower ratings (red being anti-personnel and blue being anti-tank). So rather than have a special rule for gun shields, shielded guns just have a front blue defense and a flank red defense. It's all pretty simple and elegant like that. If you hit the enemy unit, you draw a damage chit. It is killed if you hit by four or more, draw the killed chit, or if it is hit while already under a damage chit. Also, the way it does "overwatch" and the fluid nature of the battlefield is that for every action a unit executes (move one space, firing, trying to rally, etc.), the opponent may declare a reaction move right after that (so if you move, I can fire at you, then you can move again, etc.). You take turns activating units so there is a lot of back-and-forth. Good game, and fast. Oh, it's about Operation Barbarossa, by the way.

Another wargame that supports multiple players is Memoir '44. You have to buy two sets, though, or buy the special Overlord boxed expansion... but if you do that, you'll have to settle for using cardboard counters for some of the units rather than M44's premier feature, the little plastic dudes. There's even a special expansion aimed at playing "Overlord" style called "Hedgerow Hell", which is obviously about Normandy. It's a good game but there's a fair bit of luck involved, because you only get to move your battalions using cards. If you don't draw good cards, you're going to sit there getting owned and not be able to fight back very well. But it's fast and usually fun. Nota Bene: a famous boardgame reviewer seemed to think that playing the game in "Overlord" mode refers to the fact that each side has one top general which he called the "overlord". Obviously, it actually refers to Operation Overlord, which was the name for the invasion of Normandy by the Allies.

Risk 2210 suffers from being Risk, which is to say that it's obviously highly stylized. You move "armies" into whole countries/regions and I'm not sure what it all represents. However, in this particular version you get to conquer the Moon, and I'm can't think of why any reasonable person wouldn't want to do that.
 

Badwe

First Post
It definitely sounds like the first wargame you mention has enough elegance to avoid the dangers of a never ending unit list and a huge sourcebook, and I've looked into mem '44.

Abstraction like that in Risk and its spinoffs is cool with me. We do LIKE eurogames, we're just looking to increase the interactivity beyond "damnit! you took the move i wanted!"

I've been eying imperial lately as a potential eurogame with a heavier interaction element. Has anyone played it? Also, after reading some sites besides BGG focused on the flipside of eurogames, another euro-style with heavier interaction mentioned was Tigris in Euphrates. It turns out one of our group members is planning on purchasing that sometime in the near future. If we end up playing either of those I'll be sure to post my thoughts.
 

The Prophet

First Post
It definitely sounds like the first wargame you mention has enough elegance to avoid the dangers of a never ending unit list and a huge sourcebook, and I've looked into mem '44.

Abstraction like that in Risk and its spinoffs is cool with me. We do LIKE eurogames, we're just looking to increase the interactivity beyond "damnit! you took the move i wanted!"

I've been eying imperial lately as a potential eurogame with a heavier interaction element. Has anyone played it? Also, after reading some sites besides BGG focused on the flipside of eurogames, another euro-style with heavier interaction mentioned was Tigris in Euphrates. It turns out one of our group members is planning on purchasing that sometime in the near future. If we end up playing either of those I'll be sure to post my thoughts.
Will play Imperial this week-end for the 1st time. Looks very interesting. I personally call it Diplomacy: The Banker's Edition. I'll let you know how it went.

2 other games of war beside those suggested already...

- Conquest of the Empire (Set in Ancient Rome. you get 2 games in one, a Risk like elimination game & also a more complex, but not too much, area control game.)

- Shogun (One of my personal favorite. The battle tower rules !!!)

Nick 'The Prophet'
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
I prefer Shogun to Imperial, though both are fun.

For Ameritheme games, I like both Twilight Imperium 3e and Starcraft.

Cheers!
 

Melba Toast

First Post
For something completely different, try "Cash n' Guns".

It's 4-6 players.

It's totally interactive.

You point guns at your friends.

You can play for real money.

It only takes about 30 minutes to play.

The gameplay is a bit like poker. You have 3 bullets that you can play over 8 rounds. The remaining 5 rounds you have to bluff. The trick is to either eliminate your competition or get your competition to fold.
 

Badwe

First Post
I'm glad to be hearing good things about games I was already investigating. Reading about Cash n guns, it sounded like a hoot, glad to hear it's also fun.

The same person in the group working up to T&E will be considering Starcraft thereafter. When I look at the image shots of Twilight Imperium I get excited by all the hexes and units, but am deathly afraid of the 4 hour time limit. For reference, we can't even get ourselves to stay sitting for our weekly 3 hours of D&D.

I have yet to look into conquest of the empire, so I'll have to do some digging on that one today.
 

Korgoth

First Post
The same person in the group working up to T&E will be considering Starcraft thereafter. When I look at the image shots of Twilight Imperium I get excited by all the hexes and units, but am deathly afraid of the 4 hour time limit. For reference, we can't even get ourselves to stay sitting for our weekly 3 hours of D&D.

I'm not sure if the Flash, Speedy Gonzalez, Superman and the designer of Twilight Imperium could finish Twilight Imperium in 4 hours. :yawn:
 

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