D&D 4E Looks like 4e's combat is closer, and I LIKE it!!

[AverageCitizen]

WTF? No. You're entirely neglecting the force of energy.

With enough applied force, an arrow fired perpendicular to the ground would *never* again touch the ground (although it would eventually escape the earths gravity).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper#Snipers_in_warfare

This link says the world record for a sniper kill is just over a mile and a third (2430 yards) with a flight time of 4.5 seconds.

Unless you're suggesting it would take 4.5 seconds for a bullet to hit the ground if dropped from nose level.

Now *THAT* would be a magic bullet.

No, he's right. Lateral momentum doesn't reduce the pull of gravity. You have to remember that even the slightest arc in the shot would increase flight time. Snipers account for this.

The only exception that I can think of would be a bullet traveling so fast that it would apply its lateral force directly against the earth's gravitational pull before it lost its velocity. Which means it would have to get past the horizon and then out into space before the pencil hits the ground.

 

[Trainz]

WTF? No. You're entirely neglecting the force of energy.

With enough applied force, an arrow fired perpendicular to the ground would *never* again touch the ground (although it would eventually escape the earths gravity).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper#Snipers_in_warfare

This link says the world record for a sniper kill is just over a mile and a third (2430 yards) with a flight time of 4.5 seconds.

Unless you're suggesting it would take 4.5 seconds for a bullet to hit the ground if dropped from nose level.

Now *THAT* would be a magic bullet.

You missed something from your link bud:

[...] the bullet had a flight time of ≈ 4.5 seconds, and a drop of ≈ 70 meters (230 ft).

Your dude fired the bullet 230 feet higher than his target. That's why snipers adjust their scopes before firing. That's why one of the most important skills thaught in sniper school is estimating distance.

BACK ON TOPIC...

I'm very happy with the range change, but... come ON guys...

I'll tell you why a D&D archer can hit a target at 1000 feet: he's a hero. Same reason he can fall 150 feet and survive.

Legolas did it in Fellowship (when crossing the bridge). That orc was easilly 1000 feet away.

That is, a HIGH LEVEL archer can make these shots. A 1st level archer will have a -10 on his 1000 feet shot; won't make it 95% of the time.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I'm not very happy with the limited range. People shot at great distances (and with a fair degree of accuracy) in real life! Look up english longbowmen on google. You'll be amazed at what they could do centuries ago. Of course, adding in a long range increment with a severe attack penalty (5x base range with a -10 hit penalty) wouldn't be that hard to do, so it's not that big of a deal to me.

It's going to be interesting to see how PCs handle flying creatures now, since flying is such a taboo in this edition. Perhaps dragons and the like won't have such ridiculous fast fly speeds anymore.

 

[boredgremlin]

Honestly, 3E bow ranges are ridiculous. Yes, an arrow can conceivably kill someone 200 yards away. But that's via volley fire on a mass of targets, not single aimed shots. ISTR a quote from somewhere that the practical range limit for a bow is about 30 yards, because any more than that and the target can just step out of the way of the arrow.

That person had never shot a bow or been bow hunting. Its so completely absurd a statement that its hard to debate. Its so far off the mark that its like debating blue and green with a blind man. I really have to wonder if your friend had ever been hunting, or target shooting, beacuse if so he would have seen that the arrow goes so fast at even 50 yards thats its almost impossible to follow with your eye, much less dodge.

 

[hong]

That person had never shot a bow or been bow hunting. Its so completely absurd a statement that its hard to debate. Its so far off the mark that its like debating blue and green with a blind man. I really have to wonder if your friend had ever been hunting, or target shooting, beacuse if so he would have seen that the arrow goes so fast at even 50 yards thats its almost impossible to follow with your eye, much less dodge.

Psst. When hunting, you make sure the deer don't see you.

 

[Li Shenron]

You know what they say about assumptions...

I personally hate dungeon adventures for the most part, I prefer open air ones when I dm. Everyone has a preference.

That's ok. But besides the issue of calculating range penalties, what else was a problem in those open air combats? That ranged combatants are better than melee combatants? Did it screw up your adventure?

Just asking, because it hasn't happened to me. Maybe if you have a battle in a totally flat area, but as soon as you have cover somewhere...

 

[Li Shenron]

It's going to be interesting to see how PCs handle flying creatures now, since flying is such a taboo in this edition. Perhaps dragons and the like won't have such ridiculous fast fly speeds anymore.

Maybe flying is an encounter power.

(LS runs to find cover...)

 

[MichaelK]

Agreed.

Closer combat is preferable in my opinion as well.

 

[green slime]

Its just another nail in the coffin of 4e for me.

I like long ranges, and out door adventures.

That said, I really don't have too much of a problem with airborne mages reigning havoc, or super long range snipers:

1) encounter distances are generally closed extremely fast, unless the level is very low level. There are a multitude of ways to do this: flight, dimension door, ....

2) In most situations IMC, people are not crossing open ground for any great length of time. In general, most wooded areas provide excellent cover for people on the ground, and drastically limit range of sight.

3) There are ample methods for even low level characters to gain cover against an archer operating at long range, amongst them Tower shields, Obscuring Mist.

And while it isn't a game breaker for (the inclusion of long range combat or not), I'd resent the loss of the ability to include a certain encounter design aspects. How is the removal of choice a good thing?

 

[Jhaelen]

I like long ranges, and out door adventures.

I dislike long ranges and like outdoor adventures

For the most part I'm using wilderness adventures (my dungeons are literally 5-room dungeons!). I'm still all for shorter ranges because of very practical issues:
I'll no longer need xxl battlemaps. Currently, many encounters start at ranges where it's not even possible to place the pcs on one end of the battle-mat and the enemies on the other end.

With a druid scouting in eagle shape from high above and a ranger pc with the far shot feat long distances are the rule rather than the exception.

What we've been doing is placing minis at a border of the battle-mat and put a die (or two...) next to it showing how many more squares should be between the mini and the first square of the battle-mat...

Unfortunately, you don't always have a dense forest handy where visibility is poor, so a reduction in missile/power ranges would be very welcome.