Pathfinder 2E Looks like I will be running a PF2e game in a few weeks...suggestions?

[BigZebra]

I was referring to this one: Let's Read Scales of War
I don't think the dude ever got through it though.

 

[CapnZapp]

I’m one of Retreater’s players, and I can second what he says here. In addition, because the dungeon is so story-lite, and the characters have such a nebulous reason for being there, there is very little reason to engage in greater exploration or investigation activities.

The dungeon is pretty much just presented to interact in. If you bite off more than you can chew, you can retreat 15 minutes to the mid-sized town filled with people who don’t care enough to clear out the dungeon at their doorstep.

Counterpoint: what did you expect?

The dungeon as a concept pretty much defines the easy or introductory roleplaying experience, for both players and GM alike.

And more philosophically, I wouldn't expect too much story development from a game with levels. These games are pretty much centered on giving the players a nice predestined heroic journey where they can go from zero to hero with not too many speed bumps along the way

Tl;Dr: if you want "mature" concepts like not always getting what you want, i suggest you broaden your horizons...

Meanwhile, a dungeon is fine for what it is, and for all it ever aspires to be.

 

[Retreater]

Scales of War went all the way up to 30th level.

I forgot 4e went 1-30. I guess I'm used to saying 1-20 to represent a full range.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Counterpoint: what did you expect?

The dungeon as a concept pretty much defines the easy or introductory roleplaying experience, for both players and GM alike.

Meanwhile, a dungeon is fine for what it is, and for all it ever aspires to be.

Specifically in this case? I did not have additional expectations. @Retreater warned us ahead of time that it was a story-lite dungeon crawl.

In general? While certain restrictions are inherent in a dungeon adventure, it isn’t hard for the writer to include at least a few story elements to create a purpose for the adventure.

• Reverse dungeon: the party was captured and imprisoned in the bottom floor of the dungeon. They free themselves and have to fight their way to the surface;
• Nesting dungeon: you are hired to find someone who was kidnapped. You free them at the end of the first floor of the dungeon. They provide some reason to descend to the second floor (treasure, greater threat, etc.). Repeat.
• You are hired to collect an item in the dungeon. The dungeon provides clues that returning the item to the quest-giver would be terrible idea...

Just a few (admittedly thinly sketched out) ideas.

 

[Retreater]

Counterpoint: what did you expect?

The dungeon as a concept pretty much defines the easy or introductory roleplaying experience, for both players and GM alike.

And more philosophically, I wouldn't expect too much story development from a game with levels. These games are pretty much centered on giving the players a nice predestined heroic journey where they can go from zero to hero with not too many speed bumps along the way

Tl;Dr: if you want "mature" concepts like not always getting what you want, i suggest you broaden your horizons...

Meanwhile, a dungeon is fine for what it is, and for all it ever aspires to be.

I can't speak for @FrozenNorth but I can say Paizo's APs usually have a lot of background and NPCs (too much for my tastes). Admittedly I have not played any of the other Paizo mega-dungeons since I dropped out of PF1 around Mummy's Mask.
I'm still on the fence if large dungeons are out of the wheelhouse of PF2. Easy access to rests, full heals between combats, a town within 15 minutes, etc, all makes it feel video gamey. You have an exciting skirmish (combat as sport) then move on to the next, with little impact in story or your characters' abilities.
I do like it better than Age of Ashes FWIW. It at least seems to be written with access to the rules.

 

[kenada]

It’s certainly possible to have dungeons with interesting story elements. I’d proffer Winter’s Daughter for that list. As the players explore and discover things, the story of the Sir Chyde and Princess Snowfall-at-Dusk unfolds. It’s up to the players how and if their plight is even resolved. I can totally see some players deciding to keep the item they are supposed to give the princess, and that’s fine.

I’ve run a few Paizo APs (though we only completed Kingmaker) and one adventure module. The usual structure is that something happens, and the PCs have to go deal with it. NPCs and events often have detailed backstories, but the modules almost never provide ways for the PCs to learn that. As far as the players are concerned, the Stag Lord in Kingmaker is just a tough bandit dude they have to kill to establish their kingdom.

I don’t think that is a flaw with dungeons crawls per se. There’s no reason you have to make them only about fights, but that’s how Paizo does things, and that’s the apparent expectation for “modern” adventures. It’s a little disappointing to hear that exploration mode is not being leveraged as a story-telling device. If you’re spending most of your time delving, then you could use that to tell a story through what the PCs discover and learn (e.g., like video games that use recordings).

 

[payn]

I'm still on the fence if large dungeons are out of the wheelhouse of PF2. Easy access to rests, full heals between combats, a town within 15 minutes, etc, all makes it feel video gamey. You have an exciting skirmish (combat as sport) then move on to the next, with little impact in story or your characters' abilities.
I do like it better than Age of Ashes FWIW. It at least seems to be written with access to the rules.

PF2 seems to be aiming for combat as sport, but trying to be super cheeky about it unlike 4E.

 

[payn]

I’ve run a few Paizo APs (though we only completed Kingmaker) and one adventure module. The usual structure is that something happens, and the PCs have to go deal with it. NPCs and events often have detailed backstories, but the modules almost never provide ways for the PCs to learn that. As far as they’re concerned, the Stag Lord in Kingmaker is just a tough bandit dude they have to kill to establish their kingdom.

This is the number one thing I usually change when running a Paizo AP. As written, there is little way for the PCs to learn these great stories unless the GM infodumps it on them. I try and re-write those elements so they make sense and that the PCs have a way to learn about them as they adventure. My gut feeling tells me Abomination Vaults is one of the worst offenders with GMs scratching their heads on how they get this info to their players.

 

[Retreater]

This is the number one thing I usually change when running a Paizo AP. As written, there is little way for the PCs to learn these great stories unless the GM infodumps it on them. I try and re-write those elements so they make sense and that the PCs have a way to learn about them as they adventure. My gut feeling tells me Abomination Vaults is one of the worst offenders with GMs scratching their heads on how they get this info to their players.

Yeah. There are a few obviously evil NPCs who will tell you their backstory and master plan if the party agrees to surrender and be sacrificed to their dark god. Unfortunately, I don't know many groups that will do that, and if they did, I guess the campaign would end with their sacrifice.

But perhaps most importantly it's that the story doesn't really matter to the AP. It's not pertinent to the combats, doesn't provide motivation for the exploration. It's just background of what happened in the dungeon in the past. (At least as far as I've read - basically the first book and half of the second.) I have a strong suspicion it will come to be important, but by the time it does, that's going to be 6-7 levels of experience later (and several months of play).

It's also presented as no clear villains or masterplan (or plot). For me, as the GM, I could read ahead to the end of the 3rd volume, try to figure out what's going on, and then figure out how to present that to the party. I can't help but think that the AP was written without an end goal in mind, whereas the mega-dungeon that I am writing for the OSR incorporates the villain in the history throughout the dungeon, and he makes his presence known on the surface world, giving the party a real reason to challenge him. I'm definitely no James Jacobs, but I feel this is mega-dungeon design 101.

 

[payn]

Yeah. There are a few obviously evil NPCs who will tell you their backstory and master plan if the party agrees to surrender and be sacrificed to their dark god. Unfortunately, I don't know many groups that will do that, and if they did, I guess the campaign would end with their sacrifice.

But perhaps most importantly it's that the story doesn't really matter to the AP. It's not pertinent to the combats, doesn't provide motivation for the exploration. It's just background of what happened in the dungeon in the past. (At least as far as I've read - basically the first book and half of the second.) I have a strong suspicion it will come to be important, but by the time it does, that's going to be 6-7 levels of experience later (and several months of play).

It's also presented as no clear villains or masterplan (or plot). For me, as the GM, I could read ahead to the end of the 3rd volume, try to figure out what's going on, and then figure out how to present that to the party. I can't help but think that the AP was written without an end goal in mind, whereas the mega-dungeon that I am writing for the OSR incorporates the villain in the history throughout the dungeon, and he makes his presence known on the surface world, giving the party a real reason to challenge him. I'm definitely no James Jacobs, but I feel this is mega-dungeon design 101.

Another thing about the APs is you really need to read them in their entirety to successfully run them. You dont need to memorize every map and NPC per say, but you should definitely be familiar with the adventure synopsis of all parts. Some folks fall in the trap of thinking they can go module to module and the APs dont work like grandpappy's modules of the 80's and 90's do.