"Looks like we're going to win this battle . . . in about 90 minutes from now."

I noticed that around here, people say that a lot, but I've never seen that in 30 years of D&D playing. If the spellcasters ran out of spells, they'd better get their best weapon out, look lively and stay out of the fighters' way.

And vice versa.

Pretty much unless the party was running near empty, it wasn't time for rest...not that the DM would let you, for that matter.

I've only seen it once, in nightfang spire we kept running out of spells and having to hole up and rest. In a tower full of incorporeal undead. *sigh* It was really painfull. That whole stretch of the campaign was way over our heads. The only reason we lived was the GM promised to 'play stupid'. It sucked frankly. I'd much rather have had my character go elsewhere and come back when he was actually in the proper weight class for the module.
 

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Again, to all those who are managing to keep the party running on fumes, how are you not killing PC's?

Look, the math's pretty straightforward. A creature, by and large, can do CRx10 damage as a max per round. If you go into a fight without full hit points, the dice gods WILL roll max (or close to) damage on you eventually and you die.

Given the rather large number of attacks the DM will make against the party, how are you not killing PC's often?

Also, how do you explain that the vast majority of modules out there allow parties to rest pretty much whenever they want to?
 

Again, to all those who are managing to keep the party running on fumes, how are you not killing PC's?

Look, the math's pretty straightforward. A creature, by and large, can do CRx10 damage as a max per round. If you go into a fight without full hit points, the dice gods WILL roll max (or close to) damage on you eventually and you die.

Given the rather large number of attacks the DM will make against the party, how are you not killing PC's often?

Also, how do you explain that the vast majority of modules out there allow parties to rest pretty much whenever they want to?

Maybe they misread the CR rules and thought that a CR=APL encounter was supposed to be hard? Add in a slightly large party (6 people?) and a defensive build tank and you can last on fumes for a good long while. Even then, eventually you'll get splattered, but by that point it won't take much more DM fudging than de-confirming crits to avoid tanks exploding.
 

Again, to all those who are managing to keep the party running on fumes, how are you not killing PC's?

Er... How do I not kill off PC's? :blush:

Simple... I don't worry about that. PC's die.

My normal homebrew games tend to have 4 to 6 encounters in a day for the 'climax' event. This event i usually the 'break into the BBEG lair' portion of the plotline. A significant portion of my encounter design includes terrain options that allow a lower CR creature to become a greater threat.
The first three encounters are in the CR-2 to CR level. The 4th and 5th are CR + 1 to CR +2 range. The BBEG itself is usually a CR + 4.

The party is usually on its last legs, but often pull off a heroic and daring success.

This is a playstyle I have developed over many years of playing/running. I believe the enjoyment of winning against the odds is sweeter than a 'we wiped the walls with those guy'. In 2e, this playstyle paired with Ravenloft and CP2020 resulted in a high PC fatality rate, usually at least one character per campaign mini-arc.... and that is why my players came to the table. They knew they wouldn't be coddled and protected. Their victories were earned.

The only TPK's I have on my record are from the Ravenloft original module {7 times so far}, my 'So you want to kill a Dragon' challenge game {where TPK is the expected result from my POV, 6 times} , and the Temple of Elemental Evil {due to a Paladin who went Blackguard at the behest of Iuz and turned on the party, only once}

YMMV.
 

Six encounters? How the heck are you not killing PC's?
and
Again, to all those who are managing to keep the party running on fumes, how are you not killing PC's?

I told you how- basically, it boils down to playing smart. You only fight when you have to. Your spellcasters only cast as many spells as they need to, and then only at the hardest of targets.

Instead of relying entirely upon divine casters for healing, use your party's wealth to purchase magic items that heal or prevent damage. Then your divine casters can concentrate a little more on ending the fight than preserving the life of this PC or that.

For example, I know that a lot of people will open an encounter with a mage dropping a major spell on the foes while their warriors close. They then continue dropping spells until the fight is done.

In our group, the mage may or may not drop a big spell on the foes. Whether he does so or not depends upon what he sees- some foes just simply aren't worth expending mana on. The warriors may or may not close, depending upon the tactical situation. Sometimes, its better for the foe to come to you, if you happen to have a bottleneck at your disposal. In addition, most PCs carry some kind of ranged or reach weapon- sometimes both- meaning they can contribute to the battle without actually being engaged in melee. Sometimes its a ranged/reach sunder, trip, or disarm that turns the tide of battle permanently in the PC's favor.

Even non-magical alchemical weapons can be of use- even to higher level parties- when resources start running thin. A little unanticipated alchemists fire can be just enough distraction to an enemy spellcaster- especially one who is shrugging off magical attacks. A tanglefoot bag can slow down enemy reinforcements long enough to make a difference.

(I've mentioned my Dex-based polearm-wielding Githzerai monk and other similar PCs in other threads- they have proven to be key in multiplication of force.)

When you combine spellcasters who conserve their spells with warriors minimizing the number of foes they face at any one time, your spellcasters tend not to run out of spells, and your warriors tend not to run out of HP.

Look, the math's pretty straightforward. A creature, by and large, can do CRx10 damage as a max per round. If you go into a fight without full hit points, the dice gods WILL roll max (or close to) damage on you eventually and you die.

Many times, whether your PCs live or die is decided before you roll for initiative. You have to be aware of the situation.

If you're running on fumes when you encounter something like this, you have lots of options. Avoid the fight if you can. Deception & doubletalk may let you walk by the encounter. Strategic use of illusion, enchantment & obscuration spells may provide distractions while you disengage. Negotiation or surrender may be an option, depending upon the situation.
Also, how do you explain that the vast majority of modules out there allow parties to rest pretty much whenever they want to?

The cynical answer? The module writers are buying into that playstyle and write their adventures accordingly.

Personally, we don't use a lot of modules.

But, if you look back at the earlier incarnations of the game, you'll find that playstyle wasn't supported at all. If you found a good place to rest, you marked it on your map and made sure nobody cut you off from it...or knew you were using it as a base (if that is what you decided to do).

Judges' Guild products were notorious for being merciless- I know of one that had an island that looked nice and inviting...and was infested with trolls. Get too far from your ship, and you were virtually guaranteed a TPK.
 

Exactly.

The DM puts the burden of figuring out how to stay alive on the players' shoulders (where, IMHO, it belongs) and merely runs a world in which staying alive is more than possible. Imprudent use of resources might end in death, or it might end in holing up somewhere, or it might end in both. The DM doesn't determine the outcome ahead of time.

IME, once they understand the paradigm, players are more than capable of keeping their characters alive, for the most part. ;)

RC
 

and


I told you how- basically, it boils down to playing smart. You only fight when you have to. Your spellcasters only cast as many spells as they need to, and then only at the hardest of targets.

How do your casters know which are the hardest of targets? How do they know that the minotaur they face now will be the most difficult challenge for the day? If you have six or seven encounters each day, it's impossible that it could progress linearly from easiest to hardest, unless each adventure is lockstepped on rails.

So, how do you "play smart" when you have so little information?

Instead of relying entirely upon divine casters for healing, use your party's wealth to purchase magic items that heal or prevent damage. Then your divine casters can concentrate a little more on ending the fight than preserving the life of this PC or that.

That's all and fine, but, it still ignores the fact that equal CR opponents can kill PC's in one round. Not hurt, kill. That means that you HAVE to have your biggest healing available all the time, or you lose PC's.

For example, I know that a lot of people will open an encounter with a mage dropping a major spell on the foes while their warriors close. They then continue dropping spells until the fight is done.

In our group, the mage may or may not drop a big spell on the foes. Whether he does so or not depends upon what he sees- some foes just simply aren't worth expending mana on. The warriors may or may not close, depending upon the tactical situation. Sometimes, its better for the foe to come to you, if you happen to have a bottleneck at your disposal. In addition, most PCs carry some kind of ranged or reach weapon- sometimes both- meaning they can contribute to the battle without actually being engaged in melee. Sometimes its a ranged/reach sunder, trip, or disarm that turns the tide of battle permanently in the PC's favor.

Ranged trip? Ranged disarm? I see. Houserules. You do realize that you cannot sunder or trip with a ranged weapon. You also cannot sunder with a piercing weapon. In addition, how do your PC's avoid the -8 attack penalty when firing into combat (-4 for firing into any combat and additional -4 for cover which applies often)?


Even non-magical alchemical weapons can be of use- even to higher level parties- when resources start running thin. A little unanticipated alchemists fire can be just enough distraction to an enemy spellcaster- especially one who is shrugging off magical attacks. A tanglefoot bag can slow down enemy reinforcements long enough to make a difference.

(I've mentioned my Dex-based polearm-wielding Githzerai monk and other similar PCs in other threads- they have proven to be key in multiplication of force.)

When you combine spellcasters who conserve their spells with warriors minimizing the number of foes they face at any one time, your spellcasters tend not to run out of spells, and your warriors tend not to run out of HP.

I agree, good tactics is good tactics.

What about flying opponents? Or, at higher levels, opponents who can teleport/incorporeal whatever. Heck, a simple Freedom of Movement from that enemy caster renders most of your tactics void. How do you avoid all that?

Many times, whether your PCs live or die is decided before you roll for initiative. You have to be aware of the situation.

That sounds good, but, it's simply not true. Whether you live or die is entirely based on how well the DM roles. Given that most creatures are more than capable of killing a PC in a single round, two rounds tops, a couple of lucky rolls on the part of the DM results in a dead PC. No amount of planning saves that. The only thing that protects you from that is having high level healing on hand.

If you're running on fumes when you encounter something like this, you have lots of options. Avoid the fight if you can. Deception & doubletalk may let you walk by the encounter. Strategic use of illusion, enchantment & obscuration spells may provide distractions while you disengage. Negotiation or surrender may be an option, depending upon the situation.

Talking is entirely situationally dependent. The other options you talk about are spell based - I thought your casters were tapped. Considering that pretty much everything in the game is faster than the PC's, how do they run away?

The cynical answer? The module writers are buying into that playstyle and write their adventures accordingly.

Personally, we don't use a lot of modules.

But, if you look back at the earlier incarnations of the game, you'll find that playstyle wasn't supported at all. If you found a good place to rest, you marked it on your map and made sure nobody cut you off from it...or knew you were using it as a base (if that is what you decided to do).

Ballocks. Modules had tons of "safe havens" built into them, even "back in the day".

Judges' Guild products were notorious for being merciless- I know of one that had an island that looked nice and inviting...and was infested with trolls. Get too far from your ship, and you were virtually guaranteed a TPK.

And thus proving my point. You cannot play smart in that sort of situation. You just die.
 

How do your casters know which are the hardest of targets? How do they know that the minotaur they face now will be the most difficult challenge for the day?

They don't, necessarily. OTOH, if they play intelligently, they will have used divination magic and mundane information gathering to have some idea as to what they are likely to face.

That sounds good, but, it's simply not true. Whether you live or die is entirely based on how well the DM roles.

Not in any game that I have ever been a party to for more than a session or two. IMHO, a fun game challenges the players, not just the characters. If the game is just meant to challenge the characters, I see no reason to have any players at all.



RC
 


They are playing in the low levels, I think, where wands and potions can actually matter in combat, would be my guess.

I'm running for 12th-13th level characters and their wands are quite definitely making a difference in keeping the party running on fumes. They've been romping through quite a few frost giants in the Glacial Rift (G2, updated to 3.5). Half the party is suffering from altitude sickness (fatigue), the dwarven and human fighters have been sucking up lots of healing, and the rogue cohort got smatted into negatives in one hit from a giant axe... but was brought back from the edge of death.

The party is definitely well stocked on wands of healing and fireballs (in the fireball case, crafted at a higher caster level than the minimum). Even if giants are making the saves, they aren't exactly magic resistant and do get substantially whittled down until they are pretty easy meat for the fighters. They still have a few very hard encounters ahead of them and will probably finally take a retreat to get off the glacier very soon.

All in all, I'm not doing anything in particular to try to keep them alive. In fact, getting into character for the giants, I'm trying to kill them for the good of the clan. But they're well prepared, well stocked, and it's a challenge to do it even if I am smacking them around a bit and fairly constantly.
 

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