"Looks like we're going to win this battle . . . in about 90 minutes from now."

Ranged trip? Ranged disarm? I see. Houserules. You do realize that you cannot sunder or trip with a ranged weapon. You also cannot sunder with a piercing weapon. In addition, how do your PC's avoid the -8 attack penalty when firing into combat (-4 for firing into any combat and additional -4 for cover which applies often)?

House rules? You are familiar with Complete Warrior, are you not? Both ranged disarm and sunder are right there. It's not at all clear that he says his players are using a ranged trip nor that they are trying to use piercing weapons as sundering weapons. Plus the -4 for cover firing into melee was made optional in 3.5.
 

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How do your casters know which are the hardest of targets? How do they know that the minotaur they face now will be the most difficult challenge for the day? If you have six or seven encounters each day, it's impossible that it could progress linearly from easiest to hardest, unless each adventure is lockstepped on rails.

So, how do you "play smart" when you have so little information?

Well, when you're facing a known spellcaster, some cannon fodder and summoned elementals, you prioritize 1) Spellcaster, 2) Elementals, 3) Minions.

But even so, you don't just have your spellcaster lobbing spell after spell. Typically, he should cast 1-2 major spells (that actually affect the targets) then hold fire.

That's all and fine, but, it still ignores the fact that equal CR opponents can kill PC's in one round. Not hurt, kill. That means that you HAVE to have your biggest healing available all the time, or you lose PC's.

Typically, we don't use the mega or the low level healing spells until someone is drastically wounded. The first healing spells that get expended are the medium ones. The low level ones are used either for occasional patches (such as a quick combat buff) or en masse on a single PC. Almost as a rule, the BIG heal spells aren't used until the third encounter or so.

In the interim, we use potions and the occasional wand.

And don't forget, even 1 hp of magical healing stabilizes a PC- Hello, Cure Minor Wounds cantrip!

And typically, we don't lose PCs. We've had 2 close calls (-9HP) and one death in RttToEE, and the slain PC was brought back by an NPC.

Ranged trip? Ranged disarm? I see. Houserules.

Sorry, in the interest of brevity, I sacrificed clarity.

Typically, one of the PCs in the party has a way to sunder, disarm or trip- sometimes more than one maneuver- and is built to do so with reach or at range. There are a lot of reach weapons that let you trip and/or disarm. There are feats that let you disarm and sunder with ranged weapons, and Precise shot gets rid of the penalty for firing into melee.

After a while, the soft cover penalty doesn't matter much.
What about flying opponents? Or, at higher levels, opponents who can teleport/incorporeal whatever. Heck, a simple Freedom of Movement from that enemy caster renders most of your tactics void. How do you avoid all that?

1) Well, what's sauce for the Ghoul is sauce for the Gandalf. We have access to similar tactics, letting us take the fight to those opponents. Plus, even low-level abilities can be useful against such foes. Late last year, I used a Greatspear wielding Ftr/Monk/Kensai PC with potions of Enlarge to battle a pair of dragons in their lair. They flew and flew, but they weren't outside of MY reach. That single tactic was instrumental in driving the dragons to flee.

And that PC was based on a PsyWar/Monk who used the same tactic with Expansion...which gets you 2 levels of growth.

2) Invisible and Teleporting foes still have to have room to get to you- if you know you're fighting something like that, you have to control the battlespace. That can be done with magic, alchemical items, or even smart selection of a battleground. If there is only one unoccupied or unthreatened space for your foe to T-port into, even a simple Stinking Cloud can ruin his day.

3) Incorporeal foes still have to contend with Brilliant Energy weapons and Transdimensional spells.

Whether you live or die is entirely based on how well the DM roles. Given that most creatures are more than capable of killing a PC in a single round, two rounds tops, a couple of lucky rolls on the part of the DM results in a dead PC. No amount of planning saves that. The only thing that protects you from that is having high level healing on hand.

I'd have to disagree.

First, how YOU roll has a great deal to say about victory and defeat. I (as DM) watched helplessly a few years ago when a player seemed to be luck incarnate, dropping Crit after Crit in close battles with her Paladin...using my dice, even, and rolling in the open.

Forethought- admittedly sometimes metagaming forethought- also goes a long way to increasing survivability. If your DM prefers melee over magic, building your PC with the best possible AC is going to matter more than almost any other defensive factor you can control.

Facing mummies? Bring fire. Fighting Undead in general? Bring a blunt weapon. Going to the plane of Air? Bring a good ranged weapon.
Talking is entirely situationally dependent. The other options you talk about are spell based - I thought your casters were tapped.

No, generally our casters aren't tapped- that's part of what I'm talking about.

We just finished a battle with a Doomdreamer in RttToEE. The main mage cast 2 lightning bolts, a Magic Missile...and a Burning Hands at an illusion. That was it. (The previous encounter? A single Ice Storm, followed by a series of coup de graces with his dagger.)

The main divine caster, a Druid (there are 2 other PCs with 1-2 Druid levels, another with 2 Cleric levels :erm:) helped out with a Summon Nature's Ally. The rest of the time, he did some minor buffs.

And before you think that we've got a bunch of other arcane powerhouses, there are 2 other arcane casters in the party- a PC with 1 Sorc level (for spiderclimb and mage armor), and a PC with 3 Spellsword levels and 3 Diviner levels. (His main function as a spellcaster has been casting buffs and gathering info.)

Considering that pretty much everything in the game is faster than the PC's, how do they run away?

1) Someone almost always has a "Wall of" something spell or item.

2) Sometimes you run before engagement.

3) Sometimes, you use the environment. Warriors are good at causing cave-ins in mines with a little chopping and flexing.
Ballocks. Modules had tons of "safe havens" built into them, even "back in the day".

4) Sometimes the situation suggests a way out. Sometimes, there isn't one. If the situation is the latter, and you don't think you can win, try surrender. Eventually, a spontaneous caster will get his spells back, a warrior will clunk a guard on his head and get the keys, or a rogue will free everyone with trickery...

Because, IME, if your DM has truly put an unwinnable encounter in front of you, you're probably not supposed to be fighting, and talk is required or surrender and escape is part of the plotline.

Is that metagaming? To a point, yes it is. However, its also how rational people think: "If you can't win, survive." is one of the first things taught in self-defense classes, anti-interrogation training, and other forums.

And thus proving my point. You cannot play smart in that sort of situation. You just die.

No, you could avoid death by not blithely wandering off into the deep woods/jungles of a strange island fresh off the boat. If you stick close to the landing zone, you can probably fight off 1 or 2 trolls and escape. What you can't do is fight your way off the island when every direction has 10+ hungry trolls.

You could also avoid death by asking the local mariners about what islands to avoid at all costs. Or hiring one as a navigator.

Again, this isn't really metagaming. Read the accounts of any sailing voyage and you'll find that the sailors had to stop at numerous islands for restocking supplies. They seldom left shouting/running distance of the landing craft on the first landing at a particular island. When they did, it was usually with a LARGE force- 2 or more landing craft, with possibly all of the second boat being "marines."

They are playing in the low levels, I think, where wands and potions can actually matter in combat, would be my guess.

We're going through RttToEE, and are all 10th level. Call it what you will.
 
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I've only seen it once, in nightfang spire we kept running out of spells and having to hole up and rest. In a tower full of incorporeal undead. *sigh*

For me, it was Spire of Long Shadows. What is it about spires?

Cheers!
 

Facing mummies? Bring fire. Fighting Undead in general? Bring a blunt weapon. Going to the plane of Air? Bring a good ranged weapon.

But, that's the trick right there. Right there. How do your players know that they will be facing mummies? Do you allow them to know the exact contents of a dungeon before they go in? Brilliant energy weapons? How? That's a +4 enhancement. You're talking a MINIMUM 12th level character to have that. Incorporeal undead show up around 5th level.

You keep harping on this playing smarter but ignoring the fact that to play smarter, you require information that the players shouldn't really have access to.
 

And what's more, according to Tom Lehrer, 90 minutes is how long it'll take to win World War III. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pklr0UD9eSo[/ame]
 

But, that's the trick right there. Right there. How do your players know that they will be facing mummies? Do you allow them to know the exact contents of a dungeon before they go in? Brilliant energy weapons? How? That's a +4 enhancement. You're talking a MINIMUM 12th level character to have that. Incorporeal undead show up around 5th level.

You keep harping on this playing smarter but ignoring the fact that to play smarter, you require information that the players shouldn't really have access to.

Eh?
Did you skip over the parts where he mentions divination magic (once as a tactic, and once as what one character's specifically took divine casting for), and standard information gathering (rogues, and the asking the mariners/hiring a navigator).

Do all your players walk blindly into every adventure without knowing an inkling of what they are going to face? I've DM'd the Sliders game before, nice change to keep the players on their toes... but seriously, every single time?
How do the players even know to go to this place for the adventure if they haven't been told anything about it yet?

This is some pretty standard stuff I would have thought...
 

Eh?
Did you skip over the parts where he mentions divination magic (once as a tactic, and once as what one character's specifically took divine casting for), and standard information gathering (rogues, and the asking the mariners/hiring a navigator).

Do all your players walk blindly into every adventure without knowing an inkling of what they are going to face? I've DM'd the Sliders game before, nice change to keep the players on their toes... but seriously, every single time?
How do the players even know to go to this place for the adventure if they haven't been told anything about it yet?

This is some pretty standard stuff I would have thought...

There's a world of difference between having some idea what exists in a certain location and knowing specifics. Sure, if I'm going into a tomb, I can likely expect undead. But, that's about as far as it goes. He's playing a 10th level campaign - most of the divination magic that can be used hasn't appeared yet.

IMO, this is sort of a reverse Oberonni Fallacy (sp). Instead of our magical "good DM" being able to fix all problems and make a perfect game, we have mystically endowed players who never make a mistake, have perfect information about what they will face for the day and never, every make a misstep.

Because, if you do, you die.
 

Because, if you do, you die.

So you keep saying. Is it so hard to accept that there are people who have had a different gaming experience with the 3e editions than you? Or is it hard to believe that there were adventuring parties that used coordinated teamwork before 4e?
Quite frankly, I can't really see why it's so important to you that dannyalcatraz's experiences must be wrong or there's some deficiency in his campaign that doesn't make it 3e D&D.
 

So you keep saying. Is it so hard to accept that there are people who have had a different gaming experience with the 3e editions than you? Or is it hard to believe that there were adventuring parties that used coordinated teamwork before 4e?
Quite frankly, I can't really see why it's so important to you that dannyalcatraz's experiences must be wrong or there's some deficiency in his campaign that doesn't make it 3e D&D.
Seeing as how 4E works differently to 3E, it's a reasonable bet that such experiences are in the minority, at least among those gamers whom WotC considers to be D&D's target market.
 

There's a world of difference between having some idea what exists in a certain location and knowing specifics.
And there is a world of difference between doing some research to get an idea of what they face and walking blithly into a dungeon.

The latter option often comes from players who believe that the DM won't throw anything at them they can't handle and gives rise to the 5 minute adventuring day.

Bardic Knowledge, Gather Information, and library research all exist at 1st level. In my campaign, these tools are valuable assets to the group as they know that the DM will occasionally let them wander into something that is over thier heads.

It sounds like Dannyalcatraz is with me in using these tools to challenge the players and provide them limited information from which they can prepare for the dungeon/adventure.
Sometimes that information is slightly off...or even completely wrong. But I prefer to encourage my group to spend the time using these tools and thinking of the challenges in advance of the combat {as well as during the combats}.


ThirdWizard, I rarely run over 14th level due to the imbalance/sillyness of high level 3x DnD. Beyond that, the game rapidly boils down to a rock-paper-fireball exercise in futility. Either you have the 'X' required to stomp the opponent in 2 rounds or you get stomped in 2 rounds. Not my idea of fun.
So yes, my games are 'low level' and my group prepares for 4 to 6 encounters when they go to fight the BBEG.
 

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