Uller
Adventurer
Hi All,
I started running Lord of the Iron Fortress over the weekend and promptly ran into some problems. If you're one of my players (and you know who you are...) read no further.
First a little background...Most of my group is relatively new to D&D. They've been playing since 3e came out about once every 6 weeks or so(so what they learn in one session, they usually forget by the next...not a cut on them, they are quick learners and all, just a fact of human nature). Two members of the group (myself and one of my long time friends) have been playing D&D for a very long time (about 35 years of D&D experience between us) and we take turns DMing. So far, our campaigns have all centered around lower to mid level characters. They've been fun, but the newer players would often talk longly of finally reaching high level and being able to do some real damage. So I offered to run a one-shot 15th level adventure so they could get a taste for what it is like. I figured, we could use their exploits as a basis for a new campaign. Since I've very little experience with high-level gaming and _no_ experience with it in 3e, I thought it best to pick up a pre-fab adventure in the hopes that it would be better thought out than I could do. Lord of the Iron Fortress looked pretty cool (I really like the cover art!) so I picked it.
I instructed my players to each produce a 15th level character with a 28-32 point buy (depending on the background they wrote...every one ended up with at least 30 points). They could each have 200,000gp for purchasing magic items, spells, etc. Everything in the DMG is fair game, with my approval.
So 4 of the 5 players show up with their characters 'some-what' ready and we started. They had rumors of missing forgemaster souls and then they met a group of Dwarves who were trying to resurrect a murdered forge master but couldn't. They used a Vision spell and after three tries, they were able to deduce that the soul was enslaved on "The Lost Cube" in Acheron and so forth. So they headed off to Rigus to get to Acheron.
By this point, it was getting late, and being the sort of DM who thinks that a D&D session isn't complete without _some_ sort of excitement, I asked if they wanted to have one combat encounter before we called it a night. They all eagerly agreed, wanting to try out their characters. So I read the set up for the "On the Trail" encounter with the two steel beasts. I figured a straight EL 15 encounter would be no problem for them.
Here are the characters we have:
An aging human Warrior-King (Ftr14/Aristocrat2)
A human Ranger15 (Monte's version)
A half-elf Ftr6/Src1/Arcane Archer8
A celestial human Abjurer (Wiz15) (he lost his spell book in exchange for the celestial template...the result of a really good character bio).
So they spotted the one beast walking down an alley away from them. They said "we follow it." So I drew out the alley on my grid. I made it 5' wide, about 60' long with the beast near the end(where it forms a 'T' with another alley) and the party standing on the street. I said "How do you follow it?" And they placed their figures in the alley, about 40' behind the beast, everyone within _20'_ of each other (I thought "oh no...this is bad..."). The Wizard announced that he would cast Improved Invisibility and send his famillar up to the roof to follow the thing from the air. So I figured the familiar would automaticaly spot the beast on the roof, but since no one was waiting for the familliar to get into position, the Wizard would become aware of the threat just as it attacks. So the Wizard and the beast on the roof rolled init for the surprise round. No one else could react Unfortunately, the beast won...
Things wend down hill from there. The Fighter failed his fort save versus BOTH beasts' roars and died(yes...died...not just unconscious). The Ranger had _no_ weapons to get through the things' DR 20/+4 and was mauled to death. The Arcane Archer was able to damage them and wore one down to about 50 hit points while the second was stunned by a Power Word, Stun from the wizard, but when that one came to, the AA shifted his focus to that one since it was closer. After two rounds of attacks from it, he was down to -6. The Wizard finally drove them off with a chain lightning spell and a lightning bolt....
So...after one encounter (that should have been only a moderate challenge), three quarters of the party was dead or nearly dead. It was all too clear that as DM, I made the critical mistake of not reviewing each player's character before hand and making sure he was up to it.
The fighter only had an 8 Con. This was from the more experienced player. He said it was a result of the character's advanced age(he's ~50 years old). His Str and Dex are only like 10 and 11, too. I think he is trying to make a point to the newer players that D&D is not about stats (I think he is somewhat wrong on this point...if it isn't about stats, why not give everyone a 10 in every ability and move on?)...unfortunately, he is often stuck in a 2e mindset were there was little difference between a stat of 8 or a stat of 14 unless it is a pre-req for a class. But that is a difference of _45_ hitpoints in 3e...he'd definately have survived the two roars if he had those extra hps(and he'd have a better fort save, too). I suggested to him that he make the fighter more "typical" of D&D fighters(with high Str and Con) and apply the age effects table on p93 of the PHB. This would result in a fighter that may not be the strongest/toughest guy in the world, but he's still tougher than most people.
The Ranger had no better than +1 weapons. +1 Brilliant Energy Longsword for instance and +1 Frost Longbow, etc.
The Arcane Archer was fine, with a +5 Longbow and firing +4 arrows.
The Wizard seemed to lack spells that could quickly take down a big bad monster...no disintigrate, Dismissal, etc.
No one had any wands.
So, I've told everyone to "rethink" their magic items and anything else about their characters to toughen them up a bit. It is 4 weeks until our next game, so I told them this time to e-mail me their characters so I can review them to make sure they are up to the challange. Hopefully that will help. Also, we will normally have 5 characters. So I won't adjust any encounters so that should give them an easier time.
But still, my players were concerned about how tough that fight was. They seemed to think the creatures were too tough. Of course, this encounter is _easy_ compared to some they will face. The dragons...The den of steel beasts...the iron golem at the front gate...the final encounter with Imperagon and his allies...all will be far far tougher.
Is this adventure too tough for 5 15th level characters? Should I tone things down a bit? Or, if the PCs are properly equipped, should they be able to prevail?
Sorry so long...
I started running Lord of the Iron Fortress over the weekend and promptly ran into some problems. If you're one of my players (and you know who you are...) read no further.
First a little background...Most of my group is relatively new to D&D. They've been playing since 3e came out about once every 6 weeks or so(so what they learn in one session, they usually forget by the next...not a cut on them, they are quick learners and all, just a fact of human nature). Two members of the group (myself and one of my long time friends) have been playing D&D for a very long time (about 35 years of D&D experience between us) and we take turns DMing. So far, our campaigns have all centered around lower to mid level characters. They've been fun, but the newer players would often talk longly of finally reaching high level and being able to do some real damage. So I offered to run a one-shot 15th level adventure so they could get a taste for what it is like. I figured, we could use their exploits as a basis for a new campaign. Since I've very little experience with high-level gaming and _no_ experience with it in 3e, I thought it best to pick up a pre-fab adventure in the hopes that it would be better thought out than I could do. Lord of the Iron Fortress looked pretty cool (I really like the cover art!) so I picked it.
I instructed my players to each produce a 15th level character with a 28-32 point buy (depending on the background they wrote...every one ended up with at least 30 points). They could each have 200,000gp for purchasing magic items, spells, etc. Everything in the DMG is fair game, with my approval.
So 4 of the 5 players show up with their characters 'some-what' ready and we started. They had rumors of missing forgemaster souls and then they met a group of Dwarves who were trying to resurrect a murdered forge master but couldn't. They used a Vision spell and after three tries, they were able to deduce that the soul was enslaved on "The Lost Cube" in Acheron and so forth. So they headed off to Rigus to get to Acheron.
By this point, it was getting late, and being the sort of DM who thinks that a D&D session isn't complete without _some_ sort of excitement, I asked if they wanted to have one combat encounter before we called it a night. They all eagerly agreed, wanting to try out their characters. So I read the set up for the "On the Trail" encounter with the two steel beasts. I figured a straight EL 15 encounter would be no problem for them.
Here are the characters we have:
An aging human Warrior-King (Ftr14/Aristocrat2)
A human Ranger15 (Monte's version)
A half-elf Ftr6/Src1/Arcane Archer8
A celestial human Abjurer (Wiz15) (he lost his spell book in exchange for the celestial template...the result of a really good character bio).
So they spotted the one beast walking down an alley away from them. They said "we follow it." So I drew out the alley on my grid. I made it 5' wide, about 60' long with the beast near the end(where it forms a 'T' with another alley) and the party standing on the street. I said "How do you follow it?" And they placed their figures in the alley, about 40' behind the beast, everyone within _20'_ of each other (I thought "oh no...this is bad..."). The Wizard announced that he would cast Improved Invisibility and send his famillar up to the roof to follow the thing from the air. So I figured the familiar would automaticaly spot the beast on the roof, but since no one was waiting for the familliar to get into position, the Wizard would become aware of the threat just as it attacks. So the Wizard and the beast on the roof rolled init for the surprise round. No one else could react Unfortunately, the beast won...
Things wend down hill from there. The Fighter failed his fort save versus BOTH beasts' roars and died(yes...died...not just unconscious). The Ranger had _no_ weapons to get through the things' DR 20/+4 and was mauled to death. The Arcane Archer was able to damage them and wore one down to about 50 hit points while the second was stunned by a Power Word, Stun from the wizard, but when that one came to, the AA shifted his focus to that one since it was closer. After two rounds of attacks from it, he was down to -6. The Wizard finally drove them off with a chain lightning spell and a lightning bolt....
So...after one encounter (that should have been only a moderate challenge), three quarters of the party was dead or nearly dead. It was all too clear that as DM, I made the critical mistake of not reviewing each player's character before hand and making sure he was up to it.
The fighter only had an 8 Con. This was from the more experienced player. He said it was a result of the character's advanced age(he's ~50 years old). His Str and Dex are only like 10 and 11, too. I think he is trying to make a point to the newer players that D&D is not about stats (I think he is somewhat wrong on this point...if it isn't about stats, why not give everyone a 10 in every ability and move on?)...unfortunately, he is often stuck in a 2e mindset were there was little difference between a stat of 8 or a stat of 14 unless it is a pre-req for a class. But that is a difference of _45_ hitpoints in 3e...he'd definately have survived the two roars if he had those extra hps(and he'd have a better fort save, too). I suggested to him that he make the fighter more "typical" of D&D fighters(with high Str and Con) and apply the age effects table on p93 of the PHB. This would result in a fighter that may not be the strongest/toughest guy in the world, but he's still tougher than most people.
The Ranger had no better than +1 weapons. +1 Brilliant Energy Longsword for instance and +1 Frost Longbow, etc.
The Arcane Archer was fine, with a +5 Longbow and firing +4 arrows.
The Wizard seemed to lack spells that could quickly take down a big bad monster...no disintigrate, Dismissal, etc.
No one had any wands.
So, I've told everyone to "rethink" their magic items and anything else about their characters to toughen them up a bit. It is 4 weeks until our next game, so I told them this time to e-mail me their characters so I can review them to make sure they are up to the challange. Hopefully that will help. Also, we will normally have 5 characters. So I won't adjust any encounters so that should give them an easier time.
But still, my players were concerned about how tough that fight was. They seemed to think the creatures were too tough. Of course, this encounter is _easy_ compared to some they will face. The dragons...The den of steel beasts...the iron golem at the front gate...the final encounter with Imperagon and his allies...all will be far far tougher.
Is this adventure too tough for 5 15th level characters? Should I tone things down a bit? Or, if the PCs are properly equipped, should they be able to prevail?
Sorry so long...
) tell him that King Arthur or Conan in Conan of the Isles was supposed to be older than his character and still had a decent Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution...
I think that after your players got their arses kicked, they should learn from their mistakes and not make them again (although with a game every six weeks nothing is certain...).
