Lord of the Iron Fortress

[Marion Poliquin]

In Lord of the Iron Fortress (15th level adventure), there is a new monster (whose name escapes me at the moment) that has an ability called Sundering Bite. The creature gets +4 to its opposed roll to attack the weapon, shield or item. If it hits, it deals double damage (4d6 + 14*) to the object.

Okay, here's the thing.

The rules clearly state that if an item has plusses, it has to be it with something that has as many plusses in order to be able to be damaged.

The monster does not have plusses, so according to the rules it should not even be able to dent a +1 or better item.

But wait, it does, however, have Damage Reduction 20*/+4. Following me ?

The rules for Damage Reduction state that monsters can ignore the Damage Reduction of other monsters if that DR (+1, +2, +3, etc.) is less than or equal to their own.

My question is : would you say that this would the new monster (DR +4) to damage items +4 or less ?

If yes : wouldn't you say it' a bit unfair for a monster meant as a frequent encounter in an adventure to be able to snap the character's precious items like toothpicks ? (unless they are +5, which is still rare at level 15). Plus, once the monsters have destroyedd all the character's precious equipment, it becomes very hard to defeat the monsters.

If no : well, it means that the ability just isn't very useful against high-level characters, so why even give it to the monster since it was made specifically to be thrown at 15th level characters ?

So, which is it ? Is the ability too good to be true or too bad to be true.

*edited to correct a few facts.

 

[Adjudicator]

The monster is able to sunder +4 and lower weapons. That is +4 enhancement not +4 equivelant, so he would still chew through that +2 vorpal longsword without a prob.

Looks like the cleric or wizard will come in mighty handy when dealing with this bruiser.

 

[Marion Poliquin]

The monster is able to sunder +4 and lower weapons. That is +4 enhancement not +4 equivelant, so he would still chew through that +2 vorpal longsword without a prob.

You seem mighty sure of yourself there, pardner.

You wouldn't happen to have document titles and page numbers to go with your affiremation, wouldn't you ? That would really help me out.

Looks like the cleric or wizard will come in mighty handy when dealing with this bruiser.

The problem is that it is not "this" bruiser. The Steel Predators (I checked the name) come in packs of 2-4 throughout the adventure.

 

[Grendel]

You wouldn't happen to have document titles and page numbers to go with your affiremation, wouldn't you ? That would really help me out.

you mean you didn't look it up youself. I guess you will just have to take everyones word for it then.

...and your clerics and wizards will still be you best fried because of GREATER MAGIC WEAPON and MAGICAL VESTMENTS, when cast by a 15th level caster it last for 15 hours and provides a +5 enhancement bonus.
Option 2. get an anti magic shield up with some adamantite weapons. the Shield will negate you opponents DR, without affect the adamantite bonus on the weapon, once again making them impervious.

 

[Hypersmurf]

you mean you didn't look it up youself. I guess you will just have to take everyones word for it then.

That's hardly a constructive response.

She's cited rules from two different places in the Core books - she has gone to the trouble of looking it up. She's asking for help with something that isn't made clear in the Core rules.

Adjudicator statement was made as a fact, not an opinion, so she's asked for a reference.

I don't have a reference to wholly support my interpretation, so I'll give it as an opinion - I believe the Steel Predator can't sunder magical weapons.

Damage reduction can be overcome by magical weapons, or by creatures with their own damage reduction. Two separate circumstances, either of which can apply. (MM p9)

Magical weapons can only be broken by a weapon with equal or greater enhancement bonus. One circumstance. Creatures with DR are not mentioned. (PHB p136)

DR vs DR is a completely separate issue to enhancement vs DR, just as enhancement vs enhancement is a completely separate issue to DR vs enhancement. The rules allow two ways to beat DR, but only one to beat enhancement.

In my opinion.

-Hyp.

 

[Marion Poliquin]

you mean you didn't look it up youself. I guess you will just have to take everyones word for it then.

...and your clerics and wizards will still be you best fried because of GREATER MAGIC WEAPON and MAGICAL VESTMENTS, when cast by a 15th level caster it last for 15 hours and provides a +5 enhancement bonus.
Option 2. get an anti magic shield up with some adamantite weapons. the Shield will negate you opponents DR, without affect the adamantite bonus on the weapon, once again making them impervious.

Thanks for the advice.

By the way. I did look it up, at length before asking the good people of the board. Since I didn't see anything to support Adjudicator's statement I figured it might have come from either a passage I completely missed or a sage advice / errata I haven't read. So I politely asked for a reference. It's always nice to have those things in writing.

(edited for clarity)

 

[Marion Poliquin]

That's hardly a constructive response.

She's cited rules from two different places in the Core books - she has gone to the trouble of looking it up. She's asking for help with something that isn't made clear in the Core rules.

Adjudicator statement was made as a fact, not an opinion, so she's asked for a reference.

Exactly. By the way, I'm a he. Don't worry about it, happens all the time online.

Never in real life though - must be the huge red beard.

I don't have a reference to wholly support my interpretation, so I'll give it as an opinion - I believe the Steel Predator can't sunder magical weapons.

Damage reduction can be overcome by magical weapons, or by creatures with their own damage reduction. Two separate circumstances, either of which can apply. (MM p9)

Magical weapons can only be broken by a weapon with equal or greater enhancement bonus. One circumstance. Creatures with DR are not mentioned. (PHB p136)

DR vs DR is a completely separate issue to enhancement vs DR, just as enhancement vs enhancement is a completely separate issue to DR vs enhancement. The rules allow two ways to beat DR, but only one to beat enhancement.

In my opinion.

-Hyp.

You're pretty much perfectly right on every point. According to the rules as written, the Steel Predator can't sunder items with enhancement bonuses.

I decided to ask the question because I couldn't for the life of me understand why the designer would give that ability to the Steel Predator if it's never going to be used (high-level characters tend not to have all that much non-enchanted equipment).

Perhaps the designer didn't think about the sundering rules before making the monster.

Anyway, I wanted to fly the question by the other board worthies to get as much input as I can.

Right now, I'm leaning towards using the rules as written. Although the advice Grendel gave those make it feasible to do it the other way.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Exactly. By the way, I'm a he. Don't worry about it, happens all the time online.

I hesitated, then decided to go with the odds Ah well.

Although the advice Grendel gave those make it feasible to do it the other way.

Apart from the Adamantine/Antimagic Field trick - the Steel Predator can sunder Adamantine weapons. It's not "weapons with enhancement bonuses" that require enhancement bonuses to overcome, it's "magic weapons with enhancement bonuses".

Adamantine is non-magical, so its enhancement bonuses just add to its hardness and hit points.

In my opinion

-Hyp.

 

[Marion Poliquin]

Apart from the Adamantine/Antimagic Field trick - the Steel Predator can sunder Adamantine weapons. It's not "weapons with enhancement bonuses" that require enhancement bonuses to overcome, it's "magic weapons with enhancement bonuses".

Adamantine is non-magical, so its enhancement bonuses just add to its hardness and hit points.

In my opinion

-Hyp.

And I agree.

Greater magic weapon looks like the best bet. If I decide to allow the Steel Predators to sunder enhanced magic weapons, that is.

 

[Orco42]

By the books it looks like it can not eat the magic weapons.

But I would rule that they can (up to +4) because of their DR.

Plus I am an evil DM.

 

[Grendel]

If you wanted to extrapolate the rules a little you could easily consider the plus on a magical weapon as the DR of the weapons. the books almost state as much (but not quite).

DMG 184
Magical enhancement increase a weapons hardness and hps by one for each enhancement bonus.

Also Adamantite has a hardness of 20 and 40hp per inch, so I think that an adamantite weapon should be able survive an encounter, at least long enough to have a mending (0 level) or make whole (cleric 2) spell cast upon it.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

From the rules I'd extrapolate that they can break magic weapons.

Maybe I would scale down the damage of the sundering bite. Or just the extra +4 to attack. After all, I disallowed improved sunder IMC so it would onlly be fair.

You have to realize that succeeding an opposed attack check against a level 15th fighter is a dangerous choice.

If we look at Tordek as described in LoTIF:

He has AC 32 so the bite attack of the steel predator touches him on a 12 (45%).

But Tordek has +27 for the opposed check so even at +23 the steel predator is facing a high risk of wasting an attack.

The cleric is easier to sunder but the heavy mace they often carry are almost impossible to sunder in just one attack!

Jozan +4 holy mace, for example, would have hardness 14 HP 29.

 

[Andor of the Blade]

Our group met some of these creatures last week. We decided that the creatures could sunder weapons of +4 or less (it seems to have been the author's intent - why else would they be in the module).

When the player involved and the DM worked out the opposed rolls, the creature had a large advantage. I don't recall the exact numbers, but the creature has a large strength and size advantage. Fortunately for the party, the sorceror had cast G.M.W. on everyone's weapons so they were immune to this attack.

IMO, the intent of the rules is to allow creatures with Damage Reduction to sunder weapons of equal or less enhancement. This seems to be confirmed by the inclusion of the creatures in this module (they certainly don't rate their CR if all they can sunder is non-magical weapon).

 

[Marion Poliquin]

Response to Mal :

Yeah, I was beginning to wonder if I wasn't just overreacting. I should always try these things out in play before making an opinion. But then of course, if I'm wrong my players will be left with +4 tent pins in their hands by the end of the evening.


Response to Andor :

I agree that the author obviously meant them to be able to break magic weapons. I also agree that if the beasts can't actually break magic weaons they are hardly worth their CR.

I still have a lot of time to make up my mind. I guess that I'll either run the Steel Predators like they were meant to in spirit or lower their CR accordingly.

 

[StealthyMark]

It seems like I have to wait another two weeks for this huge adventure... These steel predators are constructs, are they?

 

[Marion Poliquin]

It seems like I have to wait another two weeks for this huge adventure... These steel predators are constructs, are they?

No. They're either aberrations or magical beasts (adventure is at home right now), but I'm quite sure they're not constructs.

(EDIT : Outsider is another possibility for the Steel Predator's monster type.)

 

[SpikeyFreak]

What do these beasties look like? How many HD and what CR are they?

They sound pretty interesting.

--Piqued Spikey

 

[armac]

StealthyMark asked:
>These steel predators are constructs, are they?

Marion Poliquin answered:
>No. They're either aberrations or magical beasts (adventure
>is at home right now), but I'm quite sure they're not constructs.
>
>(EDIT : Outsider is another possibility for the Steel Predator's
>monster type.)

I just looked it up. Steel Predators are Large Outsiders.

Angus

 

[armac]

What do these beasties look like? How many HD and what CR are they?

They sound pretty interesting.

--Piqued Spikey

The illustration of the Steel Predator looks like a large
iron cat with a shark-like head.

They are 12 HD, and CR 13.

Some very basic info:
- attack with a bite and 2 claws.

- Special attacks - Pounce, improved grab, rake, roar,
sundering bite.

- Special qualities - Blindsight, deaf, immunities, magic
sense, resistances, scent, and DR.

Angus

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Actually, I think they look a lot like a slender bulette with Iron scales and longer limbs. Well, proportionnaly longer since they are just large, not huge. But there is some flesh showing between the plates that justify the possibility sneak attacks working on these beasties.

Let's analyze them thoroughly, shall we? (geez, just one line of british impersonation and I'm annoying myself already!)

Strenghts

A strong AC of 30 (-1 size, +5 Dex, +16 natural). The warrior types will still hit most of the time with their first attack, but everyone else will be strugling.

They are also very annoying to rogues because they have blindsight 30 feet. That makes it very difficult to gain ranged sneak attack against them. Unless they are stunned, I see no other options. Especially since...

...their magic sense allow them to detect any magic items within 120 feet! Gaining surprise on these beasties is very tough even without accounting for their +18 spot skill. You probably can't count on them being flatfooted.

Roar: that is a very good opening attack. Every 1D4 round the steel predator can roar, causing 12D6 of damage and deafness for 2D6 round in a 30 feet cone. Fortitude 20 for half + negating deafness. Yes, it is a fortitude check, not reflex. Rogues will really hate them!

Improved grab: Usually, you face more than one steel predator at a time. As such I would strongly warn the wizard to avoid letting a steel predator near him at all cost. He's sure to grab and rake and make your life miserable if that were to happen. The fighter won't be too worried tough. The steel predator probably won't win a grapple check against him.

Initiative: +9 Heh, you know what that means.

DR 20/+4. One or two PC will probably be caught off guard by this on their first encounter. Of course, not if they are reading this

Speed: 50. This gives them a lot of tactical capabilities. Unless you stick close together they'll be able to pick on any isolated member. And if you stick together they'll be able to catch you all in their roar attack.

And of course: the dreaded sundering bite!. Yes, it can be very annoying. It's certainly its most dangerous ability. +4 to sunder check and double bite damage (meaning 4D6+14) is very likely to cause a lot of trouble.

So So

Attack and damage. +19 and +17 X 2 is nit bad but it's not great either at that level. The PC have seen worse. Heck, the PC fighter is "worse". Tordek at level 15 is supposed to do be +27!

Damage are also underwhelming. 2D6+7 on the bite will not terrify PC of that level. And the claws are only 2D4+3.

HP: 102 is OK.

Weaknesses :

NO MAGIC RESISTANCE. For a denizen of Acheron it is unusual but it means your wizard will have a field day. Their save are good though, but not unbeatable. And plenty of spell offer no saves.

They are also immune to sonic and electricity while they have 20 resistance to cold and fire. I guess I should have mentionned that in strenght but I'm sure you have noticed the one energy attack to which they are vulnerable: acid.

Oh yeah, and it has no reach.